Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 November 4

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November 4

"Deep and profound"

What does it mean? I thought profound and deep are the same word, but of different origin. Was the author saying anything or just trying to sound deep and profound? Source: "An independent investigator for the UN says racism in Japan is deep and profound, "Quest09 (talk) 11:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

That sounds to me like an author who doesn't know that he's repeating himself. It's similar to a sports commentator some time ago who informed us of an Olympic weight-lifter that "his strength is his forte". Tonywalton ^Talk 11:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It's just a rhetorical figure of speech for emphasis. AnonMoos (talk) 11:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't sound as a very good rhetorical figure. He could also have said: "deeply profound" or "profoundly deep." Quest09 (talk) 12:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, thank heavens he wasn't talking about a pianist ("the piano is his forte"). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 15:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like they're using "profound" as if it meant width or breadth. I think they're saying that racism is both deeply ingrained and also very widespread. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 13:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The guy just didn't stop to think. Maybe he had said "deep and far-reaching" and then decided to change the one word "far-reaching" to "profound" (a synonym of far-reaching, i.e. having wide consequences) and did not realize that, literally, he was repeating himself. What was in his mind was: It is deeply ingrained, and this has wide effects. 84.153.188.184 (talk) 14:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, piffle. it's a common enough phrase: 'deep' means it runs deep into the culture, 'profound' means it's significant and resistant to change. --Ludwigs2 15:35, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Profound means, er, "deep". Tonywalton ^Talk 17:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

@Philip2: how does it come that 'profound' means now 'resistant to change'? The problem is actually this: it doesn't mean anything different than 'deep.' Quest09 (talk) 18:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

'deep' is an archaic use of the word 'profound' (according to my dictionary). the primary definition is "(of a state, quality, or emotion) very great or intense". --Ludwigs2 18:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ludwigs2 that the phrase is okay as is. The two similar terms have an intensifying effect when paired, and their meanings are not quite identical. Certainly the meanings of the two terms overlap, but profound has a meaning that goes beyond deep. It has an additional meaning of "thorough and pervasive". Marco polo (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

"thorough and pervasive" is a different case. Being 'thorough' means you check all the area of an object, being pervasive, you check its interior. I still find 'deep and profound' to be repetitive and redundant.Quest09 (talk) 18:54, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The article Figure of speech (permanent link here) mentions commoratio (red link), hermeneia (red link), and tautology (blue link).

—Wavelength (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Etymologically they may be synonyms, but actually they are not, if only because they have different connotations. They are not strictly interchangeable. LANTZY^TALK 20:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

"Profound," to me, has a bit of a different connotation. If someone says something and you say it's profound, you're really paying a compliment. But if you say it's deep, you're simply saying it's philosophically complex. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

This must be subjective. To me if someone says something is profound they're saying it's deep. Literally. A deep hole is no deeper if it's described as profoundly deep; a profound piece of philosophical thinking is no "deeper" for being described so. If the journalist had meant "far-reaching" there's a phrase for that - "far-reaching". As for "complex" that's neither profound nor (its synonym) "deep". It's complex. It's far too easy for journalists to convince people that something is important, or complicated, or complex, merely by using inappropriate sesquipdalian prolixity. 213.122.151.216 (talk) 01:34, 5 November 2010 (UTC)Was logged outTonywalton ^Talk 01:40, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

If you think they're entirely interchangable, then you've gone off the profound end. Rckrone (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Westerners have dug themselves a profound hole, and are in profound shit, by eating too much food that's been profoundly fried. Sounds deeply weird, doesn't it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Deep applies both in the literal and figurative senses. Profound (as far as I have ever heard!) only applies in the figurative. Although I think you can make both a profound and a deep bow or yawn. Perhaps simultaneously. Lexicografía (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You're onto something, but it's not quite that simple: "deep defense", "deep undercover" and similar uses are not exactly literal, but you can't replace "deep" with "profound" here. 84.239.160.59 (talk) 07:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

It's fine. Perhaps not eloquent, but certainly not grammatically or semantically problematic. You can look for shades of different meaning in connotation, or as AnonMoos suggests, accept it as a form of rhetorical redundancy, i.e. Pleonasm. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Spanish dictionary

Anyone knows a website that is a Spanish dictionary has pronunciation in Spanish way of pronounce it. Thanks.75.168.174.122 (talk) 23:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary has pronunciations for some of its words, Forvo has some, and SpanishDict.com has pretty good pronunciation audio. Lexicografía (talk) 01:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The Free Dictionary's Spanish version has Castillian pronunciations for most words, as far as I could try. SpanishDict.com seems to hold more pronunciations, but please note that they're meant to be pronounced under a kind of neutral Latin American Spanish. Pallida  Mors 09:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

This Portuguese-Spanish dictionary has a more phonetically precise pronunciation for Spanish in IPA. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 21:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)