Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 23

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

September 23

Correct preposition for "claims made"?

What is the correct preposition for the phrase "claims made from insurance firms?" I'm talking about the general case, since I understand that there are special contexts where the preposition is peculiar to that situation, for example, if there are any options for which particular insurer, one might say: "I'm making a claim through the other person's insurer rather than my own." It's been emotional (talk) 01:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the question. Working back from the example, I wonder if you're asking how to say "claims made directly against the policy held by my own insurance company" (rather than against the policy held by someone else's)? If that's the case, then I'd say "claims made to insurance firms." If you wanted to keep out the second-party factor, maybe "claims made directly to..." (This is usage I've heard and seen in the U.S., where in ordinary usage "claims made from insurance firms" would imply it's the firms that are doing the claiming.) Am I close? --- OtherDave (talk) 01:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

In English English, people often claim on a policy: so you claim for damage on your insurance (or on someone else's). Bazza (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, one claims on your own, or the other fellow's, insurance. DuncanHill (talk) 13:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Good points. You hear "He has too many claims on his policy, so his rates went up" in the U.S., as well as "claims against" (meaning the same thing). I just don't recall a "claims from companies" that had the same sort of meaning. --- OtherDave (talk) 14:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for those answers. I know about "claiming on a policy," but this is different. I'm specifically interested in the sentence as given, whether "claims made from" is correct when the object of the preposition is "insurance firms" and the verb is "(claims) made." The "second-party factor," as described by OtherDave's first post, was only to differentiate the general case (my main interest) from a more specific case (not my main interest) which popped up on google when I did my research. In the setting described in my original post, people do talk about "making a claim through the other guy's insurer," but that is, from what I can tell, a specific exception, so I was drawing attention to it to neutralise it, in case people thought of it for themselves, and used it as a good example. As for the general case, so far, OtherDave has given me "claims made to," for which I thank him, but I would be interested to see if there is any consensus out there, or a range of opinions. I don't think a casual reader would pick up on something like this, but I'm working on something I deem important, and I would like to get it right. Any further help greatly appreciated. Thanks again, It's been emotional (talk) 00:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to recap on what's happening in the real world. A claim of loss or damage is made to an insurance company. A payout or recompense is received from the insurance company. Against this backdrop, "claims made from" is clearly wrong. It could be argued that the phrase is a diminution of "a claim made [for recomponse] from an insurance firm", but if so, it's clumsy and untutored given there are more logical constructions to be had. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm inclined to accept that. But could one also say "claims made with insurance firms?" It's been emotional (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Etymology, First attestation of "Lord Love a Duck"

After hearing this phrase used in the movie Nanny McPhee, I spent a bit of time looking for it on the internet. What I found is that no one really knows the origin but have narrowed it down to the British, perhaps London, and probably the lower classes. Also, its earliest attestation seems to be near 1900.

My own conjectures include three veins. First. Perhaps Duck is a mispronunciation of Duke, maybe the French spelling, Duc. The close proximity of Lord and Duke might be the cause of the surprise element of the meaning, as if one meant: "Oh, Look, there's a Lord...Duke!" Furthermore in this same vein, I googled Lord Duc and found Duc de Levis, who had dealing with the British, and was the author of the notable quote "Noblesse Oblige", the nobility have an obligation.

Secondly. Duck is a term of endearment between men and women in lower class Great Britain. Perhaps Lord Love a Duck was part of a Sermon based on the New Testament passage "There is no greater love than when one is willing to lay down his life for a Friend" John 15:13.

Thirdly. In the same vein, perhaps it derives from the passage Matthew 10:29, A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground without god knowing it, and God loves you more than sparrows."

I would be interested to know the date of its first attestation. Tomgear (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC).

As a Cockney, I can confirm that it is a Cockney expression, but I have no idea of its origin. However I note (and this might be a complete red herring) that "love" is a nil score in tennis and a "duck" is a nil score by a batsman in cricket, so could it originally have been "love or duck" meaning nil?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps "love a duck" is rhyming slang, from the people who brought you J. Arthur Rank... --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

No definite answer, but some suggestions here[1], as well as examples of use by James Joyce, T. S. Elliot and P. G. Wodehouse. If it was widely known to be offensive, I doubt that this[2] would have got past the censors. Alansplodge (talk) 17:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily offensive, even if it is rhyming slang for "fuck" (which is plausible, as it would often be uttered where the f-word might otherwise be used). Religiously, it's a sin to utter the name "Jesus" as a profanity, but one can sort of get away with 'gee', 'jeez', 'jeepers' et al. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but I don't think they would have allowed a film called "Berkley Hunt". Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Partridge's Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English labels "Lord love a duck" as a "mild proletarian expletive" in use by 1923, and doesn't mention any rhyming slang connection. The Duc thing is the kind of "just so story" which almost never turns out to be true in etymologies; however, "Ducky" goes back to 1830... AnonMoos (talk) 19:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Using Google Books I managed to find a reference as early as 1895 ("Lord love a bloomin' duck!") , but nothing earlier. It might be worth noting that the phrase "Lord love you" was very common throughout the 19th century. Looie496 (talk) 23:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Slang and adding words

How is slang created and popularized? Does someone just randomly decide to coin a word or use an existing word in a new way? How does it spread, then? Obviously I realize that some slang might be coined and popularized through a major film or TV series or book's use of it, but what about those that are not? Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 22:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a toughie. Usually slang starts within a small group of people as a variation or shortening of or a new meaning put to an existing word (i.e. phat from fat, celebutard from celebrity and retard, meatball meaning stupid person), a new word formed from existing parts (horsiculture), or, somewhat more rarely, an entirely new word without derivation from other parts (lollapalooza). Then it is popularized within that group. A lot of slang is isolated enough that it never makes it into the mainstream (look through wikt:Category:Slang and see how much you know), which is why it is indeed called slang. Usually if a slang word survives long enough to make it into public awareness, it is through public media: songs (music is a great way of conveying words - many terms have their first mainstream reference in a song), film, movie, TV series, book, newspaper, or radio. You might want to contact a better linguistic 'authority' though, like Language Log. Lexicografía (talk) 22:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the key features is that it's picked up either within a group, becoming an identifier of that group, *or* it is picked up by a person or group of influence, and disseminated by them (by people who want to identify with that person/group). As examples, consider the way internet memes are spread about - it's a similar mechanism. It's also how internet slang moves about. Someone of influence uses it (say, on their blog/twitter/whatever), expanding it outside its smaller in-group use (for example 4Chan, Slashdot, etc.). Steewi (talk) 03:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the spread of slang words can be compared to Disease diffusion mapping and can also be represented by this S-Curve (where 'Revenues' is 'Use of slang word' or any other trend). schyler (talk) 04:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Picture Assonance

I need to represent assonance with a photograph and have had very hard time finding one. I just need to be able to explain how the photograph represents assonance. Napolite2 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Would this happen to be a homework problem? Looie496 (talk) 00:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it wouldNapolite2 (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd suggest coming up with an assonant phrase or several, and plugging them one after another into google images until you find an image that you can relate to your assonant phrase. Odd assignment, but oddly satisfying. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, I've only tried searching for things that I thought reminded me of assonance, I'll see if it works. Napolite2 (talk) 00:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll give you how now brown cow as a backstop. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Bizarrely, typing 'assonance' into a Google Image search yields 15,000+ results, some of which may be relevant. Alternatively, you could use the image on our article for Asonance :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Memorably called an "assy-thingummy" in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader... -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The first one I thought of was basketball player Charles Barkley, whose nickname was "The Round Mound of Rebound." — Michael J 14:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)