Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 7

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September 7

You don't dip your bread in, you mean?

What on earth does "You don't dip your bread in, you mean?" mean? The context is an interview written up in a UK newspaper: Morrissey interview: Big mouth strikes again. More fully:

Interviewer: "And presumably it would be a problem now, walking down Deansgate. Because of the fame?"

Morrissey: "Yes, but I don't really do all the things that famous people do."

Interviewer: "You don't dip your bread in, you mean?"

Morrissey: "Yes. That's very well put. I can see why Faber jumped on you."

Clearly I shall never work for Faber --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

To "dip your bread in"; It seems to be (somewhat rare) British slang for "be involved in" from a quick Google and Google books. Lexicografía (talk) 00:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

My guess is that the reference is to the practice of fancy restaurants of giving their guests a pre-appetizer of bread with a dish of very high-end olive oil or some fancy sauce to dip it into. I suppose it means passing up on luxuries that are available as free temptations to famous people. Looie496 (talk) 02:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Could it be a reference to Morrissey's famous celibacy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The general sense of the reported interview is that Morrisey feels he is not acceptable in 'famous' society. For this reason I strongly suspect that The interviewer was referring to an old 'low class' English hadit of dipping bread which was frequently stale into whatever drink was in use in order to soften it. I have even seen it done by modern day 'lower class' people as a way of softening the crust on their bread. As this habit is common knowledge in Britain and as the sense of the comment is about being socially unacceptable, this is the only interpretation that I think fits. Gurumaister (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

PS: Dipping a biscuit (US = 'cookie')in one's tea in order to soften it, is still a common habit in Britain and is also not acceptable in 'polite society'. Gurumaister (talk) 11:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

There's an article, of course. Bazza (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but that doesn't make sense in the context of the interview snippet quoted by the OP (I also read the interview and wondered about that). What Moz is saying is not that he's not acceptable in famous society, but that he hasn't fallen for many of the trappings of celebrity that other famous people have. The phrase remains a puzzle to me, although I like Looie496's guess. --Viennese Waltz 15:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically. Reading it in context, it seems to me that he's saying he's tempted to partake of the luxuries that fame and wealth allow, but doesn't actually do so. I haven't heard the phrase used that way before (I'm in the UK), but, again from the context, it seems that he congratulated the interviewer for coming up with a phrase that was "well put" and novel. But that's all WP:OR! Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading it again and the comments in this thread, I think I finally get it. The line "I don't really do all the things that famous people do" sounds a little snobbish (especially because Morrissey can come across rather arrogant in interviews), and the interviewer took that one step further by saying, right, you're not like the proles who dip their bread in. (The joke being that Morrissey is from a working class background himself.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 19:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's right. He's saying "I don't really do all the things that famous people do" and [I] "don't dip [my] bread in.." "Dipping bread" is not something that "proles" do, it's a metaphor covering the things that other famous people do. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

In the modern world we have reality TV stars and people who are famous for being famous, so it's certainly possible to look down on the other famous people as being ordinary, gluttonous and crass. (Looking down on them is made easier by being Morrissey, I suspect, to whom looking down on people comes naturally.) 213.122.34.79 (talk) 13:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This is mentioned in Arabian Sands by Wilfred Thesiger, about half way through the third chapter The Sands Of Ghanin. In the desert the author is trying to behave exactly like a Bedouin to gain their trust, including uncomfotably sitting in the same way as them. One of the Bedouin would make a kind of camp-fire bread roll. "When we wished to feed he would give one to each of us, and we would sit in a circle and, in turn, dip pieces of this bread into a small bowl containing melted butter, or soup if we happened to have anything from which to make it." I suspect that this book could be the kind of thing that Morrisey and his arty interviewer may read, with a lot of time on their hands. 92.15.12.54 (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Red (given name)

Under Red (given name) there is an impressive list of people named Red, mostly from the USA. What is the origin of the name Red? Is it a native american name or a translation thereof? Your virtually, 134.96.51.209 (talk) 09:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The three people I know called Red all got the name as a nickname because of their red hair. A look at many of the links under Red (given name) show Red in quote marks, telling us that it's a nickname, so quite possibly the same connection. As an Aussie, I have no idea about any Native American use of the name. I suspect that's an entirely different thing. (Of course, again as an Aussie, I also know two people with red hair who have the nickname Blue. We do that kind of thing here.) HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that it usually has to do with hair color. Red Buttons mentions his red hair and Red Barber says that he was first called the "Ol' Redhead". I didn't see anything about his hair but he did work as an announcer for the Cincinnati Reds. So there's a possible (probable) connection there. Although rare(from my experience) for a black man, Redd Foxx had reddish hair and that was actually his stage name and not his legal name. Red Grooms was given the nickname "Red" by a friend according to his article but it doesn't say why. And you're partially right in that there are a few Native American names on the list. Dismas|^(talk) 09:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"Aussie" – that word reminds me of Ossi, a nickname given to former residents of East Germany -- Irene1949 (talk) 09:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

So far, I have found one Red < Redmond (which is a place name as a given name, as popular in the anglophone world; or maybe a connection to the Old German name Ratmund), namely Red Symons. As Aussie, incidentally, although born british. 134.96.51.209 (talk) 10:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It could have some connection with the name Rufus. I don't mean the obvious fact that Rufus means 'red' in Latin. But maybe some relatively modern-day people named Rufus were nicknamed 'Red'. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Willow was nicknamed Red by Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Quadrupedaldiprotodont (talk) 14:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Let us not forget Eric the Red, whose son had early American connections, but who was certainly not a Skraeling. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Mocking the "Red Scare" of the 1950s, The Wizard of Id once featured Eric the Red. They asked him why he was called Eric the Red. He said, "You go to a few meetings, and you're marked for life!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"Red" as a nickname (as with "Whitey") nearly always has to do simply with hair color. It can get funny when guys whose red hair turns gray or white and they're still called "Red". Nothing to do with "redskins" (Native Americans) as such - with one exception I can think of. I recall reading an interview with Redd Foxx, who said his nickname came from being relatively light-skinned, not to do with his hair. He said "Red" was a common nickname among black people for lighter-toned African Americans. He made it a double-d and double-x just as a "brand". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Must be dating myself, can't believe no one has mentioned Red Skelton yet. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

He was a great entertainer. There are some youtube clips from his old TV shows. He was popular in radio before that. Another "Red" that comes to mind is Woody Allen, who had reddish hair when he was younger, and in his standup days told of a classmate who taunted him by calling him "Red". He never used that as a nickname, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Red Barber called himself "The Old Redhead". That refers to hair. His broadcasting for the Cincinnati Reds was a coincidence, and their "Red" referred to their stockings - hence their temporary nickname of "Redlegs" during the Red Scare of the 1950s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ballplayers named "Whitey" included Whitey Lockman, Whitey Herzog, and Richie "Whitey" Ashburn. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The character in The Shawshank Redemption Ellis Redding is usually called Red by the other characters, presumably adapted from his last name. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The blues pianist Rufus Perryman, who was an African American albino and (I assume) was so named when his condition was recognised at birth, became known as Speckled Red, and his younger brother Willie, also an albino, became known as Piano Red. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Re Bugs's comment on "Red" being a common nickname among black people for lighter-tone African Americans. Often, this actually did have something to do with hair color as well. The most famous example is perhaps Malcolm X who was nicknamed "Red" for his reddish hair during childhood and adolescence. Jazz musician Red Rodney was not African American, but he was billed as an African American named Albino Red when touring the South with Charlie Parker's combo (all other members were African American, and they had to pretend that Rodney was too, because of Southern customs of racial segregation on stage during that time. This anecdote is also featured in the movie Bird). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:07, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I was merely reporting what Redd Foxx said, but it could certainly be true that either reddish hair or reddish skin could encourage that nickname. Same with "Whitey" and "Blondie". You don't hear "Brownie" or "Blackie" too much, probably because those are more common hair colors. (Although there's an old song about women titled "Vanilla, Chocolate and Strawberry".) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Middle name derivative. This may concern only a very few of the people named "Red". But there is a tradition of giving the mothers family name as a middle name to the firstborn child. (Or similar naming conventions elsewhere.) Then there's another tradition to keep first names or middle names through several generations. These names occasionally got shortened and eroded and some families switched around middle name and first name between generations. So surnames like "Reddick" ended up as someone's middle name or fist name "Red". 99.11.160.111 (talk) 07:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Up and down, the verbs

I used the expression "up the ante" on another desk a few minutes ago, and it got me thinking. We "up the ante" and "up the dosage" (of a medicine), but I can't think of any other ways of upping things in the sense of increasing them. Are there any others?

Then there's the verb "down". We can "down a beer", but that means "drink whatever's left in the glass". Is "down" ever used to mean "decrease", cf. "up" meaning "increase"? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:21, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary has other examples for "down", but not in the sense of decrease (wikt:down#Verb). For "up" in the sense of increase it has "up the volume". (wikt:up#Verb). ---Sluzzelin talk 21:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

How about "downsize"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"Downgrade" too. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Also "downplay". --Frumpo (talk) 10:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

To down a proposal (to defeat it); to down a helicopter (cause it to fall); to down a(n American) football (to cause it to be out of play). None of this is really like decrease; it's a bit of a stretch to say you're decreasing the helicopters. --- OtherDave (talk) 00:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Up the priority" --Frumpo (talk) 10:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I think you could up the pressure. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Up the Irish? Probably a loose translation from Gaelic, though, so it might not count. Etymonline [1] has a few others under "up (v.)". Well, one other: up the price. Seems you can generally rely on being able to up any type of amount; but you can't down them. 213.122.34.79 (talk) 12:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, that's the impression I've got too. Funny thing, this English language. Eclectic randomness, wildly illogical spelling, unpredictabilities and dead ends at every turn - no wonder it's become the world's most dominant language. :) Thanks everyone. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)