Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 April 2

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April 2

Editor in chief

Why is the position called "Editor in chief" instead of "Chief editor"? Where did this use of 'in' come from? And finally, this is the only phrase that I can think of that uses 'in' in this way. Are there others? Dismas|^(talk) 05:16, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Commander-in-chief, and probably several other "in-chiefs" that I can't think of right now. rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

On the more transparent side, we also have e.g. "artist in residence" (rather than "resident artist"). rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:21, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Related: Composer-in-residence. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 05:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

That one actually makes sense, though, since you can be inside a residence. You can't be inside a chief, unless he happens to be a cannibal. :-) StuRat (talk) 05:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The "in" is not to be taken literally, otherwise what would "mother-in-law" mean?  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 05:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"Mother in (the eyes of the) law", I presume, rather than an actual mother. StuRat (talk) 16:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Yikes. In any case, "in-law" is explained here:[1] Unfortunately, no "in-chief". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:39, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question. Haven't thought about it before, but it looks like a French construction. HiLo48 (talk) 05:25, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

It does at that. "Chief" is of French derivation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

As per Google translate, in French "chef" is the word used for "head" (i.e. "chief"). "In chief" would suggest "in charge" or "in the lead". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

And in French, "editor in chief" is rédacteur en chef; in Spanish it's editor en jefe; and in Latin it's in capite editor. So unless they borrowed the term from English, it does seem to be a Latin-based construct. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

A parallel usage is the case in chief, which I've seen in litigation over a matter that came up as a spinoff of other litigation. —Tamfang (talk) 05:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

And in case anyone is interested, "chief editor" Google-translates into Latin as princeps editor; in Spanish as redactor jefe; and in French as rédacteur en chef again. Go figure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Litigation tangent. Direct examination of a witness -- as opposed to Cross-examination -- is known as "Examination-in-Chief" where I am. --Shirt58 (talk) 09:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

There's also "brothers-in-arms" (always plural in my experience) and "officer-in-charge". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 07:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"In arms" seems like a somewhat archaic way of saying "armed", as in "men in arms were seen leaving the building". StuRat (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"Officer-in-charge" doesn't really fit the pattern of "editor-in-chief" though since a person can be "in charge" of something. In that case, they would be an officer who is in charge of either other officers or an investigation, etc. Dismas|^(talk) 08:57, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

True. What about "commercial-in-confidence"? Or "government-in-exile"? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone can definitely be "in exile", and something can also be done "in confidence" (secretly), but how do you do something "in chief" ? StuRat (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

According to the OED, the phrase was first used in English in the context of feudal law: a tenant who held land "in chief" (a translation of the medieval Latin "in capite" or the Old French "en chief") held it directly from the king and owed him personal service. The first quotation is from 1297: R. Gloucester's Chron. (Rolls) 9691 "No man, that of the kinge hulde ouȝt In chef, other in eni seruise". The first quotation in the modern sense is from 1612: Bacon Ess. (new ed.) 44 "Thinke it more honor, to direct in chiefe, then to be busie in al". Lesgles (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Relationship

What's the correct English term to ask for the way two persons are related (cousins, uncle/nephew...)? --KnightMove (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You just ask exactly what you did... "How are you two related to each other?" works perfectly fine in any situation I could imagine... --Jayron32 19:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

An alternative way is "How do you two know each other?" (if asked to both at once) or "How do you know _____?" (if asked of one). Typically, the response will indicate the type of relationship, and the phrasing is applicable for even unrelated people (school chums, coworkers, boyfriend/girlfriends, etc.). -- 174.21.244.142 (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, the language barrier hinders me to ask the question properly... I'm looking for the family relationship, specifically. For example, Hitler's parents were half-uncle and half-niece. What could I have asked them to get the answer "We are half-uncle and half-niece." and not "We are husband and wife." or "We met 15 years ago at a party." ? --KnightMove (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Unless you were aware to begin with of that sort of unusual connection, or the rumour/possibility thereof, you'd have no reason to ever ask them, and so if you did, it would be for confirmation of something you already knew was at least a possibility. "I believe you're not just husband and wife, but also half-uncle and half-niece" would do nicely. That's an invitation to confirm or deny, as the case may be. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 22:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

However, in the UK at least, that might be regarded as being rather too inquisitive to be polite. Alansplodge (talk) 23:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You may be looking for the term "blood relative". Asking "Are you blood relatives?" or "Are you related to each other by blood?" Lesgles (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that "blood relation" is the right term. However, asking a married couple that you don't know well about a blood relation would be considered impolite in most English-speaking countries, since some people consider marriage between blood relatives more or less improper, even when it is legal. It is almost like asking "Do you have a criminal record?". Marco polo (talk) 23:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that "How do you know each other?" is an excellent way to ask such a question. It leaves them with the opportunity to say as much, or as little, as they choose to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:34, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

However, if you know or suspect that the two are related, as the original question seems to imply, then "How do you know each other?" seems odd to me. I would only use that if I had no reason to think they were related. 86.184.108.99 (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

French tenses

I'm trying to practice my french and improve Operation Unicorn by tightening up the translation from [2]. But I'm not sure how to translate what seems to be conditional past tense here: "Selon les autorités françaises, soutenues par une résolution des Nations unies, cette interposition aurait permis d'éviter une guerre civile et de nombreux massacres." Any tips? --Physics is all gnomes (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The normal translation would be "would have permitted a civil war to be avoided [would have avoided a civil war]". But the context shows this to be another kind of French conditional: the kind used to relate uncertainty about reported events. See [3], under "possibility or uncertainty". The way you translated it on the page is correct, but if you wanted to add some more uncertainty, you could rephrase it, e.g. "The French authorities, supported by a UN resolution, alleged that this intervention avoided a civil war and widespread massacres." Lesgles (talk) 23:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! --Physics is all gnomes (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2011 (UTC)