Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 August 6

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 6

The "Laotian Bird" Nock-ten

The article Tropical Storm Nock-ten (2011) claims that the storm is named after a Laotian bird--which "fact" is repeated endlessly across the internet but never attributed to a verifiable reputable source. Can anyone give a source? (I am going to post a link to this at the science desk as well.)

The Lao spelling appears to be ນົກເຕັນ.[1] This appears to be a name for the kingfisher.[2]. This recent blog post seems to link ນົກເຕັນ with the Common Kingfisher and with the storm (I can't read Lao).--Cam (talk) 23:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you go to this dictionary, and search for kingfisher in the box marked "Text", you get the entry for ນົກເຕັນ. Unfortunately I don't know how to link to the entry directly.--Cam (talk) 23:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Cam, that seems to be the correct answer. The thread on the science desk discussion the issue is longer than and quotes this one, so further comments should go there if there are any to make. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#The_.22Laotian_bird.22_Nock-ten_.282011.29

μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

The Languages of Madame de...

In The Earrings of Madame de..., when the Comtesse and the Baron meet at leisure for the first time, a marquise approaches and speaks to the Baron in Italian; then a man approaches and says much the same thing to the Comtesse in another language, which I could not place. Anyone know what language it was? —Tamfang (talk) 06:20, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

It's Czech. Among other things, he says pro vás v pátek ("... for you on Friday"), and their "Goodbye" at the end is na shledanou. Gabbe (talk) 09:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I thought I could recognize "some Slavic language", guess not. —Tamfang (talk) 01:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Er, since when is Czech not a Slavic language? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP may mean s/he can't recognize 'some Slavic language'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

We're in furious agreement here. Isn't he saying he thought it was some some Slavic language but wasn't sure which one? And having been told it's Czech, isn't he saying he thinks his original guess was mistaken? And isn't that in itself a mistake, since Czech is indeed a Slavic language? Like the old story "I was wrong once. It turned out I wasn't wrong after all, but I was wrong to have thought I was wrong". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

That is not my understanding of it. I believe he originally thought he could recognize some Slavic language (drawing this conclusion that it was a Slavic language from correctly identifying that the language in question was in fact Slavic) but was unable to correctly identify which one, therefore realising that he could not recognize 'some Slavic language' ('some' = 'unidentified'). Also, I don't know about you, but I wasn't the least bit angry. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Neither was I. But I'm not sure I still agree with your interpretation. But it doesn't matter. And I'm still not angry.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

No worries. I just thought you were furious, as you said you were (and seemed to believe I was). I did not want t infuriate the indomitable Jack, you see. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

You can domit all day long but you won't domit me.  :) "Furious agreement" is one of those humorous back formations from "furious disagreement". It just means there are 2 people arguing strongly for their respective points, not quite realising they're arguing the same point. There's no actual fury involved. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

'Course I knew that, Jack - I just prefer to take things literally :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:24, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know Czech is Slavic. I meant that my faith in my ability to listen to a few sentences in an unknown language and accurately classify it as Slavic, Germanic, Romance or Other has been shaken. And yes, this classification is hideously Eurocentric, but appropriate to the context. —Tamfang (talk) 04:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Pegasus+Unicorn

I was just wondering if "Alicorn" could also mean a hybrid born of a Pegasus and a Unicorn. "Unipeg" and "Pegacorn" are obviously made-up terms that are not officially recognized. (At least to my knowledge.)--Arima (talk) 07:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

See Alicorn for its usual meaning. As you will see from that link, it has nothing whatsoever to do with pegasi, so there is no reason for it to mean a hybrid born of a pegasus and a unicorn in addition to its normal meaning. Hope this helps. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:52, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

[Edit] Putting 'define: Alicorn' into Google gets me 'in modern fiction and art, an alicorn is a winged unicorn,' and the source for this is a [now non-existent] Wikipedia page [which is now a redirect to Unicorn]. If 'alicorn' ever was used this way, according to that definition it is a modern term, and would therefore be just as made up as the other terms you suggested. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

[Further Edit] WikiFur (nothing to do with us) mentions that this mythical animal is a product of pop culture, and therefore modern. It also gives the alternative nomenclature 'Pegacorn'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay then. Question Resolved. --Arima (talk) 07:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)--Arima (talk) 07:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

words that non-native speakers use but native speakers don't

ok so I'm traveling around Spain and I'm not so great with Spanish so I try to say "non problema" to a waiter when he's apologizing for like not cleaning the table off quickly enough or some shit.

The person I was traveling with pointed out that no one actually says "non problema" in Spain. I picked up the phrase from like a movie or the Simpsons or something. So we got to talking and started thinking about phrases or words in English that non-native speakers may use that aren't actually used by native speakers. I imagine that somewhere in linguistic jargon there must be a word for this phenomenon, but googling hasn't given me anything. Jasonberger (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a specific term in linguistics for this phenomenon, but I know the phenomenon itself exists all right. In Japanese, for example, they have wasei eigo, which is this sort of thing. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

See also Pseudo-anglicism. LANTZY^TALK 03:35, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course no-one says non problema because it is a literal pidgin translation. Try sin problema and the waiter will think you're native - or better yet say No pasa nada. Doesn't exactly answer your question but you'll sound better "a los nativos" Caesar's Daddy (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not so sure "non" is even used in Spanish. I was taught to say it as no hay problema ("there is no problem"), and I expect that would work well also. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Seems BB is right. Our article on no problemo says that the Hispanic version of the TV serial ALF used "no hay probloma" in the synchonisation. I guess one should not learn Spanish from extra-terrestrials with droopy probosces. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Back to the point. :p Most of the words that non-natives would use are often either archaic words or seldom-used ones, which, although you usually know what they mean, are often no longer in use and are only being used as they were suggested by a dictionary as a possibility for expressing an idea. I don't know if there is a real term for them though. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 21:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

awesome and enlightening conversation folks. I'm traveling with a fluent Spanish speaker so I've been able to figure some things out, but I won't take foreign language advice from Alf anymore. that fool Jasonberger (talk) 08:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)