Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 February 15

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February 15

Derivative nouns & Uncountable nouns.

I have a question regarding uncountable nouns (nouns that one cannot pluralize due to their being "general" in nature).

The vast majority of such nouns I've encountered are derived from Verbs, Adjectives, or other Nouns—by means of suffixes.

eg.> information, darkness, pavement.

One may not say "7 pavements" or "a number of informations?

As a general rule, are ALL derivative nouns uncountable? (with few exceptions such as "possibility" and "responsibility"? Pine (talk) 00:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The term you're probably looking for is abstract noun. They often tend to be "mass" or uncountable due to their semantic nature, but I don't think that there's any general rule... AnonMoos (talk) 00:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

"Pavement" could be pluralized, when being used as a synonym for "street" or "road", although I wouldn't say it's very common. I've heard non-native speakers say "informations", but that's plainly an error. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It's definitely not true that all' derived nouns are uncountable. It's rather easy to construct countable derived nouns. Dictations, realizations, etc., and that's not even jumping into -er derived nouns (planters, reporters, etc.) or noun-noun compounds.

Also, I don't think it's true that the majority of uncountable nouns are derived. There are many straight-up nouns that are not countable, such as mud (can't say *"3 muds") or rice (*"3 rices"...although note that this, as well as many other uncountable nouns like water and milk, is acceptable when used in the colloquial sense of "bowls of rice", "bottles of water", etc.). rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

"Rices" would work when discussing different varieties of rice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of putative uncountable nouns work in that way. But the point is the word is uncountable in the sense being discussed (and, for me at least, using "rice" as "kinds of rice" is still marked; I would say "this recipe includes 3 types of rice" before I'd say "this recipe includes 3 rices"). In English at least, words that are uncountable in every possible sense are hard to think of. ("Mud" is one, although even that can be made countable in a strange made-up context. And those abstract nouns also are, although like "mud" they can be coerced into countability.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to approach this question from another direction, bearing in mind that grammatical rules are not invented a priori, to then be adhered to, but are merely attempts to analyse and systemise existing language practices, as far as is possible.

I suggest that the nature of the concepts these abstract and/or 'uncountable' words signify are such that in everyday life and usage they rarely occur in contexts where pluralisation is appropriate, and therefore the plural forms seem unfamiliar and unnatural. However, as others above have demonstrated, it is usually possible to imagine (and one occasionally encounters) situations in which a plural is appropriate. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 10:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Dutch and Farsi help

For: File:Schiphol World Trade Center.JPG

How do you say in Dutch and in Farsi "This building houses the head office of SkyTeam and the Netherlands office of Iran Air?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 06:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Dutch: "In dit gebouw zijn het hoofdkantoor van Skyteam en het Nederlandse kantoor van Iran Air gehuisvest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 16:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Farsi: (right to left) این ساختمان محل دفتر مرکزی اسکای تیم و دفتر ایران ایر در هلند است — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omidinist (talk • contribs) 18:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Door number three?

Reading Jeffery Deaver's Edge. I found this sentence:

"I'm choosing door number three."

The speaker is a vain and irresponsible woman, and supposed to move into a safe house with her family, but instead decided to go to the downtown to have fun, saying the above sentence.

What does the sentence mean? --Analphil (talk) 10:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

A reference to The Third Way perhaps? She has the choice of staying in danger, moving to a safe house and she likes neither, so she does her own thing. - X201 (talk) 10:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Probably a reference to a tv show, Let's Make a Deal, which offered prizes based on which door was chosen from a selection of (generally) three. See also Monty Hall problem. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I suspect it derives from some television game show in which a contestant, at some point, could choose between three (or more) prizes, metaphorically or actually concealed behind doors. Door number three was perhaps the more risky choice, potentially yielding a prize either poor or excellent in contrast to surer but more median prizes behind the other doors. That's how I would interpret Deaver's use of the catchphrase: however, I'm sure that someone who actually recognises it will soon be along to confirm or (more likely) refute this tentative interpretation. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 11:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. a Catch phrase. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It is certainly famous from Let's Make a Deal. I would expect that the general concept has probably been around for a long time. The 19th century story The Lady, or the Tiger? comes to mind. In fact, that article claims that the producers of Deal got their idea from that story. Regarding the OP's question, "What does it mean?", the Deal basis along with X201's second sentence seems like a reasonable answer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Except that she didn't take "the third way" or pick "the third door". By going downtown to have fun, she was staying in danger. After all, if she had been safe out in public downtown, no one would have expected her to go to the safe house. Pais (talk) 14:25, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

She did take the third way. The two apparent choices was staying at home where she could easily be found, and going to the safe house which didn't sound fun. By "choosing door number three" and going out, she rejected both options presented to her and chose her own way. Presumably her level of danger would be higher than the safe house but lower than at home, or at least she thought so. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:55, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguity in Vietnamese

Why are the Vietnamese syllables “gia” and “giu” ambiguous? --84.61.155.241 (talk) 20:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Answered here, where you first asked. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)