Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 23
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < January 22 | << Dec | January | Feb >> | January 24 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
January 23
editSith
editWhat kind of fallacy is it to say "there are no absolutes." Similarly, what fallacious argument was Obi-Wan Kenobi espousing when he said "Only the Sith believe in absolutes" (because that would make him a Sith, if "only" the Sith believe in absolutes). Thanks Wikipedians! schyler (talk) 03:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hypocrisy, tu quoque, pot calling the kettle black? rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- So simple I overlooked it. Thanks. Any further input is welcome. schyler (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe also No true Scotsman, or Epimenides paradox? Adam Bishop (talk) 06:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- So simple I overlooked it. Thanks. Any further input is welcome. schyler (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe I am missing something here, but what (outside religion) are good examples of "absolutes" ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:31, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- You're either with us, or against us, for example. schyler (talk) 14:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- But "You're with us or against us" is itself a fallacy. Says so right there in the article. I would argue that saying "there are no absolutes" is in and of itself not a fallacy at all - just a statement you can agree with or not. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- "You're with us or against us" is an example of an absolute. "There are no absolutes" is a fallacy because you would be espousing an absolute. schyler (talk) 21:04, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. As for "with us or against us", I think there's always a neutral way possible, there's never a completely black and white situation - that's why I think it's a false dichotomy. Gee, I'm just piling up absolutes, aren't I :) TomorrowTime (talk) 21:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- But "You're with us or against us" is itself a fallacy. Says so right there in the article. I would argue that saying "there are no absolutes" is in and of itself not a fallacy at all - just a statement you can agree with or not. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- You're either with us, or against us, for example. schyler (talk) 14:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- "All generalizations are invalid, including this one."
- "Always remember to never say 'always' or 'never'."
- "All things in moderation."
- ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Can someone translate this Indian phrase?
editAtleast, it might be punjabi or bengali, or another Indian language. This text:
amethunake baloboshi
For context, it's probably something which would be in a love note. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legolas52 (talk • contribs) 07:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Aha, a test of Googling skillz! This is Bengali, and is more commonly rendered as "Ami tomake bhalobashi" or something similar. It means "I love you". Looie496 (talk) 17:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Why is the word "doubt" being substitued for "question"?
editI've noticed recently the usage "I have a doubt" being used by non-native English speakers (particularly by programmers from the Indian subcontinent in my case, since that's the sort of forums I tend to visit regularly). Why is this so widespread? Are people teaching English not making this distinction? I find it really frustrating to see this confused construction simply because the wrong word is being used! QmunkE (talk) 13:52, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Can you give an example, so perhaps we may be able to explain why it is used in such a way? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- What is the problem of saying "I have a doubt" when you have a doubt? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quest09 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. I question whether there is a problem. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try and find an example, but the reason I consider it to be incorrect is because "doubt" as a noun (taken from dictionary.com) is "a feeling of uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something.". When used in the context of not knowing how to do something it would be correct to use the word "question" since that is what they are doing (asking a question) - here's an example from an FAQ [1] QmunkE (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- But Indian English is a variant, that develops in its own way and contains many examples of what you would regard as "incorrect" usages, but which Indian English speakers regard as normal. For example, "isn't it?" is a phrase often used in ways that a speaker of US or British English would find ungrammatical ("his children are very talented, isn't it?") but which is fine in IndEng, (and which a German or French speaker might happily accept (c.f. "nicht wahr?"; "n'est-ce pas?")). If "doubt" is becoming a synonym for "query" in IndEng, it will eventually show up as such in dictionaries, and it will then be "correct". Karenjc 16:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, only that's not exactly true, innit? TomorrowTime (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Cor blimey, I'd been aware of the word "innit" for years, but never knew it was irrespective of person and number. Guess you learn new things every day, eh, old bean? JIP | Talk 18:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- And "innit" is never classed as ungrammatical or slangy or incorrect by speakers of "proper" UKEng ... uh ...innit? Or is there a doubt about that? Karenjc 09:38, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Cor blimey, I'd been aware of the word "innit" for years, but never knew it was irrespective of person and number. Guess you learn new things every day, eh, old bean? JIP | Talk 18:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, only that's not exactly true, innit? TomorrowTime (talk) 17:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- But Indian English is a variant, that develops in its own way and contains many examples of what you would regard as "incorrect" usages, but which Indian English speakers regard as normal. For example, "isn't it?" is a phrase often used in ways that a speaker of US or British English would find ungrammatical ("his children are very talented, isn't it?") but which is fine in IndEng, (and which a German or French speaker might happily accept (c.f. "nicht wahr?"; "n'est-ce pas?")). If "doubt" is becoming a synonym for "query" in IndEng, it will eventually show up as such in dictionaries, and it will then be "correct". Karenjc 16:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try and find an example, but the reason I consider it to be incorrect is because "doubt" as a noun (taken from dictionary.com) is "a feeling of uncertainty about the truth, reality, or nature of something.". When used in the context of not knowing how to do something it would be correct to use the word "question" since that is what they are doing (asking a question) - here's an example from an FAQ [1] QmunkE (talk) 16:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. I question whether there is a problem. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- What is the problem of saying "I have a doubt" when you have a doubt? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quest09 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- A related "problem": When I ask my teenage son a question, he replies "[I'm] Not sure" - when what he really means is "I don't know" (ie, he has no idea at all). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- In my experience in working with Indian I.T. folks, when they say, "I have a doubt", it can mean they have a question, but often it's a polite way of "questioning the truth", or at least the completeness and accuracy, of a specification. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- If that is the case then it may be a more honest way of saying "I have a question." Bus stop (talk) 04:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- Politeness is important to Indians, and they may have gotten the idea that "doubt" is somehow more polite than "question". They may think that "doubt" reflects on their failing to understand, while "question" challenges someone else's possible failure. You're right that it's certainly more honest and to the point, whether or not it's intended that way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:53, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- If that is the case then it may be a more honest way of saying "I have a question." Bus stop (talk) 04:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Leaning languages for free
editAre there some (minority?) languages that can be learned for free? I suppose some communities have an interest in their language to be learned. Quest09 (talk) 15:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- A lot of languages (in fact, any language), both minority and majority, can be learned for free; the Internet has lots of websites and materials (some good, some not so good), and of course there is always immersion. The idea of enrolling in classes and buying textbooks (or language learning software) is relatively new, as far as human culture is concerned. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- I meant, normally you need something more than the material. I suppose that a teacher is always in some form or the other needed. You'll need that at least for some basic dialogs or correcting some mistakes. Quest09 (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are many langauge exchange websites on the internet, a great deal of which also have speakers of lesser-known languages willing to share their expertise with the wider world. Do you have any particular language(s) in mind? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Language exchange is not like a professional teacher, able to recognize what kind of mistake you are making. I thought that perhaps there are free teachers for languages like ASL or other SL, Arab or Hebrew. Quest09 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. You want professional services for free? Don't we all. Thing is, language exchange may be the only option if you are not prepared to pay for it. Plus, bear in mind, the people you will be exchanging with will have a greater grasp of English than you have of their language (assuming you are learning from scratch), and being bilingual (to an extent) they probably have enough knowledge about languages and language learning to be helpful enough for you, especially if all you want is 'some basic dialogs or correcting some mistakes', as you said above. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I want professional services for free. I'm sure that mainstream languages cannot be learned for free. But, in the cases of some communities, it's in their interest to teach the language. Quest09 (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Wait, don't professional teachers of those languages have the right to provide food and shelter for their children? Why do they have less rights than people who teach "mainstream" languages? --Jayron32 00:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I want professional services for free. I'm sure that mainstream languages cannot be learned for free. But, in the cases of some communities, it's in their interest to teach the language. Quest09 (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. You want professional services for free? Don't we all. Thing is, language exchange may be the only option if you are not prepared to pay for it. Plus, bear in mind, the people you will be exchanging with will have a greater grasp of English than you have of their language (assuming you are learning from scratch), and being bilingual (to an extent) they probably have enough knowledge about languages and language learning to be helpful enough for you, especially if all you want is 'some basic dialogs or correcting some mistakes', as you said above. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- If you want actual courses, then of course it depends on where you live. There are completely free Catalan courses in Barcelona. This is part of the Catalan government's attempt to replace Spanish by Catalan. Hans Adler 17:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- You see KägeTorä - (影虎)? Good Samaritans exist in the field of language teaching. Quest09 (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Of that I had no doubt, Quest09, which is why I said 'language exchange may be the only option'. Good luck in your studies. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- You see KägeTorä - (影虎)? Good Samaritans exist in the field of language teaching. Quest09 (talk) 20:42, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Language exchange is not like a professional teacher, able to recognize what kind of mistake you are making. I thought that perhaps there are free teachers for languages like ASL or other SL, Arab or Hebrew. Quest09 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are many langauge exchange websites on the internet, a great deal of which also have speakers of lesser-known languages willing to share their expertise with the wider world. Do you have any particular language(s) in mind? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- I meant, normally you need something more than the material. I suppose that a teacher is always in some form or the other needed. You'll need that at least for some basic dialogs or correcting some mistakes. Quest09 (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- These links might be helpful.
- —Wavelength (talk) 02:44, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- How about being paid to learn a language? There have been various efforts to encourage Scots and Irish Gaelic by bursaries, grants and prizes. The only scheme I can find is only eligible for speakers of one of the forms of Gaelic to learn the other[2] but there are many more proposals.[3] --Colapeninsula (talk) 15:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)