Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 March 3

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March 3

Tai chi chuan pronunciation

How do you pronounce Tai chi chuan? — Hucz ^{(talk · contribs)} 07:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

You can listen to a Chinese woman's pronunciation at here. Click the flag on the map or the ▷ on the left under the map. Oda Mari (talk) 08:30, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The pronunciation Oda Mari linked to is accurate and clear. If you need a written transcription: the official Hanyu pinyin transcription is available at the article you linked, the International Phonetic Alphabet IPA transcription would be [tʰai˥˩ t͡ɕi˧˥ t͡ɕʰɥɛn˧˥], and an [American] English approximation would be "tie jee chwen". rʨanaɢ (talk) 08:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If you can read IPA, then it's [tʰaɪ˥˩ tɕi˧˥ tɕʰɥɛn˧˥], and tài jí quán in Hanyu Pinyin. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 09:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank-you all for your help. It's greatly appreciated! — Hucz ^{(talk · contribs)} 09:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Aram Khachaturian - Correct Armenian / Russian pronunciation

Resolved

What is the correct pronunciation of Armenian composer Aram Khachaturian's name? That is, in Armenian and/or Russian, whichever represents the origin of his name. --DI (talk) 10:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It's an Armenian name. According to wikt:Խաչատրյան, the pronunciation in Eastern Armenian is [χɑtʃʰɑtˈɾjɑn]. —Angr (talk) 10:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

This made my day. Thanks!--DI (talk) 10:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

However, I've never heard Aram K's name pronounced that way. That IPA is 3 syllables. In English speaking couuntries it's given 4 syllables, and always spoken with the stress on the u vowel (3rd syllable) that's totally missing in the above IPA. The Russians spell it Ара́м Ильи́ч Хачатуря́н, also 4 syllables, and they place the stress on the final syllable. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

From the article, the Cyrillic is "Хачатуря́н" (no clue what the diacritic above я means). Possibly χatʃətuˈrʲan?--Shirt58 (talk) 11:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The diacritic means the stress is on the я. And the Armenian really doesn't have any "u" in it: the letter-by-letter transliteration of Խաչատրյան is Xačatrjan. I don't know why Russian sticks a "u" in it, but it's pretty ironic that the vowel that's stressed in the English pronunciation (and as an English speaker I say [ˌkætʃəˈtʊriən] in five syllables) isn't even present in the Armenian original. (And don't say "euphony" as a reason for the "u": Russian speakers should have no difficulty at all pronouncing Хачатря́н [xɐt͡ɕɐˈtrʲan].) —Angr (talk) 11:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

This is indeed funny. Sergey Khachatryan, for example, has the same surname in Armenian, but it got transliterated more accurately in English and Russian ("Хачатрян"). ---Sluzzelin talk 11:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder whether there was a change in rules of transliteration at some point of time (Revolution?). The oldest of the people listed under Khachatryan is Rafik Khachatryan (Хачатрян, Рафик Гарегинович) who was born in 1937. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I just learned that the name is derived from the given name Khachatur, see for example: Khachatur-Bek of Mush. In Russian it is Хачатур, In Armenian it is Խաչատուր, pronounced [χɑtʃʰɑˈtuɾ] ("from խաչ (xačʿ, “cross”) + տուր (tur, “something given”) տամ < (tam, “I give”). The name thus means "given by cross".") ---Sluzzelin talk 19:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

And now I just learned that it was already mentioned in Angr's first wiktionary link. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of West Anglia

Someone here should know this. Does the College of West Anglia really rhyme with 'flier'? It's been tagged for quite a while. — kwami (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I come from Cambridge and I have never heard of this. I think it's a mistake. Also, I would love to know what's "west" about the place. Marnanel (talk) 16:06, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It's in King's Lynn, which is in western Norfolk. Which brings us to another pronunciation question: the article says King's Lynn is pronounced /ˈkɪŋzlɪn/, with a single stress on the first syllable, as if spelled "Kingslin". Is that right? Or is it actually pronounced /ˌkɪŋz ˈlɪn/, like two words, as it's spelled? —Angr (talk) 16:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The latter (according to anyone I've ever heard say it), with slightly more stress on "Lynn", if anything. And I agree with Marmanel about the original question. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Depends upon where in the UK the person you ask to pronounce it comes from. Most will pronounce the end 'a' in the same way as you wound say the name Angela, others will turn it into an '-ier' sound. - X201 (talk) 16:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not just the pronunciation of the final "a", it's the stress of the whole word. What the article claims is that in the college's name, Anglia is pronounced "ang-GLY-uh" (GLY to rhyme with "fly"; the whole word to rhyme with "Mariah" (Carey) or "pariah"), rather than "ANG-glee-uh" as would normally be expected. And Kwami is asking if that's right. —Angr (talk) 16:16, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds wrong to me -- Q Chris (talk) 16:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Good question. I would have assumed "ANG-glee-uh". The trailing "r" would be a common spoken oddity of some English-speaking regions, which is especially noticeable if the next word starts with a vowel. A couple of quick examples that come to mind: a stereotypical New Yorker saying, "good idear"; JFK referring to Cuba as "Cubar"; and The Galloping Gourmet referring to his wife Trina as "Trinar and I..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the 'flier' example. I was assuming a non-rhotic dialect. I meant what Angr said.

Actually, the original edit was pronounced /ˈwɛst ɑːŋɡlaɪər/, hwest-æŋɡ-laɪər. — kwami (talk) 16:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Here's what it looked like the moment the pronunciation was first added: "pronounced /ˈwɛst ɑːŋɡlaɪər/, hwest-æŋɡ-laɪər", which implies "ahng" in IPA but "ang" (to rhyme with "hang") in respelling. I think the editor who added the pronunciation isn't entirely sure how to represent pronunciation in either system (and is pretty clearly a non-rhotic speaker). —Angr (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

See and hear http://www.forvo.com/search/Anglia/. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

See and hear http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=anglia&submit=Submit. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:40, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the erroneous pronunciation from the article, as I don't think it's necessary in any case. For example there's no pronunciation guide in University of East Anglia. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:41, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Question: does anyone pronounce "west" as "hwest", with a hard h, as the "respell" seems to imply? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 19:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I doubt it. At least one person seems to think it should be spoken that way, but why would they think that? Maybe a confusion with wh- words like white. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Communicating while relating Schedule information

Define how to communicate the Friday of the week we are engaged in ...'this Friday'? verses the week we will enter into following the upcoming weekend, 'next Friday'?

This is a frustrating topic in our household and a constant communication issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.137.180.183 (talk) 18:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

For some relevant information about when the week begins, see Seven-day week#Week numbering.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

"This Friday" and "Next Friday" seem pretty self explanatory, at least in my household. If you wanted to be more specific, you could instead say "Friday of this week" and "Friday of next week", or simply use the dates. --Zerozal (talk) 19:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If today is Monday and you refer to "next Friday", do you mean in 4 days time or in 11 days time? It could easily mean either, so it is inherently ambiguous. "This Friday", however, would always mean the first one after today, whether it's as close as tomorrow or as far away as 6 days time. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:12, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If today is Saturday, this Friday could mean "yesterday" if there is not sufficient disambiguation from verb tenses. This Friday will be remembered as the day of the official opening of Smith Arena.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Anecdotally, we've always used "this Friday" to be short for "this coming Friday", never for "yesterday" when it's Saturday. "Next Friday" would mean Friday next week, until you actually get past Friday, and then it becomes "this [coming] Friday" again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

What if today is Sunday and you say "this weekend" meaning the one currently happening, but then refer to Friday night (two days ago) as part of said weekend? Is it still "last Friday" even though it's part of "this weekend"? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 12:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

How about if today is Friday ? Does "this Friday" then mean today ? I always like to specify the number of days from today, so would say "this Friday, 3 days from today, is when we should bury the body in the crawlspace". :-) StuRat (talk) 06:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

If today is Friday, one would never use "this Friday" to refer to it. I always just give the date ("On Monday (7 March) ..."). — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 07:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I can think of a case where it might be: "Should we go this Friday or next Friday ?". Yes, you could say "today" instead of "this Friday", but people might say it my way, too. StuRat (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, for "not this Friday coming but the next one" we would say "Friday week" and the following Friday would be "Friday fortnight". But people still get in a muddle over "next Friday" which has built-in uncertaintity. Alansplodge (talk) 09:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I was always a little uncertain as to what "Friday week" meant when I lived in the UK. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 15:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

French words ending in -ent

Is the -ent ending always silent or just in verbs? Is the -ent pronounced in words like arpent and récent? --75.15.161.185 (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Just in verbs in the 3rd-person plural. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 23:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not necessarily silent, in many dialects of French the -ent (as in ils parlent) has a light /ə/ sound. Basawala also puts forth a very good point, that it is not silent in (for example) il appartient. 72.128.95.0 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC).

The t can also be pronounced because of liaison, which is obligatory in some cases (parlent-ils français? = [paʁlətʁil fʁɑ̃sɛ]) and optional in others (ils étaient à Paris = [ilz‿etɛ(t‿)a paʁi]). In fact, the only letter that is always silent (in regular verbs in the 3rd-person plural) is the n. Lesgles (talk) 23:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yep, however we can also analyze that as an schwa-insertion after a consonant cluster, and t-insertion as a buffer used in inversions. Note that the inversion of il parle, which is parle-t-il, is pronounced the exact same way as parlent-ils; in these cases -ent is an orthographic convention that is not reflected in the actual grammar of the language. In other words, you would (almost) never pronounce the <t> in "Ils parlent avec moi", just as you wouldn't place a buffer t in "Il parle avec moi", (not *"Il parle-t-avec moi"). (Addendum : You're right that it's optional, but IMO not very natural and very rare in colloquial speech) ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 00:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

More on this interesting issue here. ʙʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{spik ʌp!} 00:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

And yes, the "ent" in nouns and adverbs is pronounced. For example, "absolument" (adverb) and "le mouvement" (noun). I can't think of any adjectives that end in "ent" at the moment, but then again it's late. Falconus^{p t c} 06:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Addendum: if you ever are confused about a word's pronunciation, you can generally find the standard pronunciation in a good dictionary (or online). For example, this tells you that "arpent" is pronounced "/aʀpɑ̃/ ". You may or may not understand the IPA, but it's a clue that at least something is pronounced after the 'p' (in this case, it happens to be a nasal vowel, similar (but not identical) to the English "own" if you hold back the 'n'). Falconus^{p t c} 06:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is "il appartient" notable? The rule is for the -ent at the end of the ils/elles form. That is, ils appartiennent, which is most certainly silent. I'm not sure what you're going for there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.130.98 (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe that was precisely 72.128.95.0's point. Lesgles (talk) 21:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)