Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 November 15

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November 15

French translation

Scène de remise du pavillon du protectorat au gouverneur Lacascade par le prince Hinoi le 18 juin 1881

Can I get some help translating this "Scène de remise du pavillon du protectorat au gouverneur Lacascade par le prince Hinoi le 18 juin 1881. Cette image a souvent été présentée,à tort, comme celle de la proclamation du protectorat. Photographie de G.Spitz." and "Petit-fils de Pomare IV et fils de Teriitua et d'Isabella Shaw. Chef d'Arue, le prince Hinoi était « intelligent et sympathique. C'était un homme d'une taille au-dessus de la moyenne, avec un embonpoint assez prononcé (...). Très populaire parmi la population tahitienne et européenne de Tahiti, Hinoi avait été adopté par son oncle Pomare V, et élevé par le roi, jusqu'à la mort de ce dernier le 12 juin 1891 » (Raoul Teissier: « Chefs et notables des E.F.O. au temps du protectorat »). C'est lui qui remit au gouverneur le pavillon tahitien que Pomare V avait pu laisser flotter sur le palais royal. A Papeete, l'avenue qui porte son nom relie le front de mer au cours de l'Union sacrée en traversant le quartier de Fariipiti."

My effort is:

Scene of the handover of the flag of the protectorate to Governor Lacascade by Prince Hinoi on 18 June 1881. This image has often been presented, wrongly, as that of the proclamation of the protectorate. Photography by G. Spitz.

Grandson of Pomare IV and son of Teruita and Isabella Shaw. Chief of Arue, Prince Hinoi was "intelligent and likeable. He was a man with an above-average waistline, quite distinctly overweight (...) Very popular among the Tahitian and European population of Tahiti, Hinoi had been adopted by his uncle Pomare V, and brought up by the king, until his recent death on 12 June 1891" (Raoul Tessier, Chiefs and notables of the EFO in the time of the protectorate [this is the source of the quoted passage]). It's he who handed over the Tahitian flag, which Pomare V could let fly over the royal palace, to the governor. At Papeete, the avenue which bears his name links the seafront to the course of the Sacred Union (river?) crossing the district of Fariipiti.--Nicknack009 (talk) 08:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Handover? Is there a better translation of that specific word? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

(EC with Adam Bishop below) Presentation? Delivery? Relinquishment? Surrender? These alternatives increasingly imply the (unknown to me) degree of compulsion displayed in these ceremonial proceedings "when King Pōmare V (1842–1891) was forced to cede the sovereignty of Tahiti and its dependencies to France", to quote our article on Tahiti. The most applicable of the several meanings of remis(e) in my own French dictionary (Cassell's) would be 'delivery': 'handover' (some would hyphenate it as 'hand-over') seems to me quite appropriate in the context, since in English it covers the possible range of meanings I suggest above without being specific.

On a couple of other minor points: I would suggest "It is he who" rather than "It's he who", since the informality of the contraction clashes with the formality of the (slightly archaic) construction; "could let fly" is not a natural expression in English - I propose simply "which Pomare V had flown" but others with better French may well be able to suggest alternatives better reflecting the sense of the original. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.25 (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"Avenue du Prince Hinoi" and "Cours de L'Union Sacrée" are avenues in Papeete, French Polynesia. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"Presentation" of the flag? It depends on what they're doing exactly. "Handover" sounds fine to me. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Is it the governor's inauguration? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Can someone help me translate this three pages from 221 to 223 [1]? It'll probably take a little time. I would use google translate but I find the translation to be really confusing and hard to understand. Thank you.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Not everyone is going to be able to see the same pages of that book as you (I can't see any of them). Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

It's apparently section 42; this is the plain text (I've tried to fix most of Google's "scan-os". - Nunh-huh 17:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

42. FRANCE, TAITI. Déclarations signées à Papeete, le 29 juin 1880, par le Roi Pomaré V et le Commissaire de la République, portant cession à la France des îles de la Société et dépendances*). Bulletin des lois, XII^e Série, No. 583. Déclaration du roi Pomaré V.

Nous, Pomaré V, Roi des îles de la Société et dépendances, Parce que nous apprécions le bon gouvernement que la France a donné aujourd'hui à nos États, et parce que nous connaissons les bonnes intentions de la République française à l'égard de notre peuple et de notre pays, dont elle veut augmenter le bonheur et la prospérité, Voulant donner au Gouvernement de la République française une preuve éclatante de notre confiance et de notre amitié, Déclarons par les présentes, en notre nom personnel et au nom de nos descendants et successeurs, Remettre complètement et pour toujours entre les mains de la France le gouvernement et l'administration de nos Etats, comme aussi tous nos droits et pouvoirs sur les îles de la Société et dépendances. Nos États sont ainsi réunis à la France; mais nous demandons à ce grand pays de continuer à gouverner notre peuple en tenant compte des lois et coutumes taïtiennes. Nous demandons aussi de faire juger toutes les petites affaires par nos conseils de district, afin d'éviter pour les habitants des déplacements et des frais onéreux. Nous désirons enfin que l'on continue à laisser toutes les affaires relatives aux terres entre les mains des tribunaux indigènes. Quant à nous, nous conserverons pour nous-même le titre de roi et tons les honneurs et préséances attachés à ce titre; le pavillon taïtien avec le yac français pourra, quand nous le voudrons, continuer à flotter sur notre palais. Nous désirons aussi conserver personnellement le droit de grâce, qui nons a été accordé par la loi taïtienne du 28 mars 1866. Nous faisons cette Déclaration à la famille royale, aux chefs et au peuple, pour qu'elle soit écoutée et respectée. Papeete, le 29 juin 1880.

Le Roi, Pomaré V. Les Chefs, Maheanuu. Aitoa. Hitoti Manua. Tere a Patia. Montrai a Tàhiro. Teriinoharai. Roometua. Maihau Tavana. Terai a Faaroau. Tariirii Vekiatua. Teriitapunui. Maraiauriauria. Ariipen. Tuahu a Rehia. Toni a Puohutoe. Matamao Teihoarii. Opuhara. Matahiapo. Raihanti. Tiihiva. Les Interprètes, J. Cadousteau. A. M. Poroi. L'Inspecteur des affaires indigènes, A. Caillet.

Première déclaration du commissaire de la République. Nous, commandant, commissaire de la République aux établissements français de l'Océanie, Agissant en vertu des pouvoirs qui nous ont été donnés, Déclarons accepter, au nom du Gouvernement de la République française, les droits et pouvoirs qui nous sont conférés par Sa Majesté Pomaré V, auquel se sont joints tous les chefs de Taïti et de Modrea; Déclarons, en conséquence, sauf la réserve de la ratification du Gouvernement français, Que les lies de la Société et dépendances sont réunies à la France. Papeete, le 29 juin 1880.

J. Chassé.

Deuxième déclaration du commissaire de la République. Nous, commandant des établissements français en Océanie, commissaire de la République près des iles de la Société et dépendances, Vu la remise faite au Gouvernement de la République française, par le Roi Pomaré V, de tous ses droits et pouvoirs sur les lies de la Société et dépendances, Agissant en vertu des instructions et pouvoirs qui nous ont été donnés, Prenons l'engagement, au nom de la France, de faire payer, à partir du 1" juillet 1880: A Sa Majesté Pomaré V, une pension annuelle et viagère de soixante mille francs 60,000f A Sa Majesté Marau Taaroa Salmon, une pension annuelle et viagère de six mille francs 6,000 Aux princes Tamatoa et Teriitapunui, frères du Roi, une pension annuelle et viagère de six mille francs 12,000 A Teriivactua, fille de Tamatoa, et à Teriinavaharoa, fille adoptive de Teriitapanui, une pension annuelle de douze cents francs 2,400 A Isabelle Schaw, dite princesse de Joinville, veuve du prince Tuavira Joinville et belle-sœur du roi, une pension annuelle et viagère de six mille francs 6,000 A la mort des princes Tamatoa et Teriitapunui, la moitié de la pension annuelle et viagère dont jouissaient ces princes sera réversible sur la femme et les enfants des susdits. La pension accordée à la princesse de Joinville sera réversible sur la tête du jeune Hinoi Arii, fils de la princesse. Le jeune Hinoi sera de plus élevé aux frais du Gouvernement français. Le Gouvernement français payera aussi une rente annuelle et viagère de six cents francs à Terere a Tua, membre de la famille royale 600 Il sera payé, en outre, à titre de récompense pour services rendus: A Arii Paea, ancien chef, une rente annuelle et viagère de dix-hait cents francs 1,800 A Aitu Puaita et à Taharuru, à Teihuarii, chacun une rente annuelle et viagère de douze cents francs 2,400 Total 91,200 Toutes les pensions ci-dessus indiquées, payées en remplacement de celles actuellement touchées par les intéressés, sont incessibles, insaisissables et inaliénables. Nous nous engageons de plus à faire acquitter par le Gouvernement de la République française les dettes laissées à sa mort par la feue reine Pomaré IV, mère du Roi, conformément à l'état qui en a été dressé, et aussi à faire terminer le plus tôt possible la construction du palais royal commencé. Papeete, le 29 juin 1880. J. Chessé.

• ) V. la loi portant ratification de ces actes, N. R. G., 2_e Série, VI. 506.

• KAVEBEAR, have you tried to directly contact one of the editors at Wikipedia:Translators_available#French-to-English? Not that you couldn't necessarily find someone at the Language desk here to possibly help, but that may be a more direct way to get your translations done. --Jayron32 18:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Since it's a long passage, I've posted my translation at KAVEBEAR's talk page, if anyone wants to have a look and correct it. - Nunh-huh 18:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

What does this mean?

I knew a hispanic guy who called one of his other friends what sounded like "chunito". What does that translate to in english. I would guess it's in spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heck froze over (talk • contribs) 18:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Might be 'chinito', which is a derogatory term for anyone who is asian, as far as I can tell. Mikenorton (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Could also have been "chilito" which literally translates as "small chili pepper" and in practice is a derogatory term for "small penis". --Jayron32 19:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

repository/depository

Is there any difference between a "repository" and a "depository". Wiktionary refers to them as synonyms, but is there any subtle way that they mean something different? Slideshow Bob (talk) 19:20, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe in a very abstract sense, but not in application. I would describe a repository as a place to hold things and a depository as a place to put things; but then one must ask how does a place hold things if no one put them there, and if you put something in a place, that place holds them. That is, the sense of the words is somewhat distinct, but there's no way to differentiate the things they describe; they have subtly different meanings but in the end they are almost perfect synonyms. --Jayron32 19:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

One thing I noticed when looking into this is that repository has some additional meanings that depository does not. e.g. one can refer to a "repository of knowledge", but using the D word there would be unusual. There is also a definition relating to Roman Catholic practices. This is based on Merriam-Webster's online dictionary. From a purely OR point of view, I was thinking that a depository was perhaps more often a transient destination, while a repository would be more permanent; my mental model was the "night depository" of a bank. You put the bag o' money in there, but that's not where it stays. --LarryMac | Talk 19:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but there's also (as a counter example) the Texas School Book Depository, which was a long-term storage facility for school books. --Jayron32 19:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

However Texans [2] are not noted for their command of Standard English. Marco polo (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Point of order: He was a Connecticutter pretending to be a Texan. That was probably a big source of the problem. He didn't necessarily have a native command of the Texan language. --Jayron32 01:50, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't you mean the Texian langidge? --Orange Mike | Talk 21:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC) (speaks cracker like a native; Tennessean by birth, cheesehead by the grace of God)

Checking out these terms on EO,[3][4] to repose is to lay down and to deposit is to put away. Both from Latin, and very little difference. The root word ponere (to put) has generated all manner of words (in the Romance languages and hence also in English) with the syllables "pone" and "pose". How they got an "s" from an "n" is anyone's guess, but that's the way it is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:11, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

They didn't get an "s" from an "n", and it isn't "anyone's guess": people do actually know. Pōnere is from older *posnere, which was one of a number of Latin verbs that have an "n" in the present stem but no "n" in the perfect (posuī) or the supine/past participle stem (positum). (That "n" comes from the Proto-Indo-European nasal infix that many verbs had in the present stem only.) The -pon- words derive from the Latin present stem, while the -pos- words derive from the supine/past participle stem. Angr (talk) 22:43, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Deposit has a connotation of dumping, rather than careful storage. Deposit accounts are places to quickly dump money rather than carefully invest it. Rivers that dump minerals or organic matter form deposits, not reposes.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Translating Japanese honorifics

When translating Japanese, should the honorifics be kept as-is or translated (e.g. Mr. Yamamoto instead of Yamamoto-san)? --70.250.212.95 (talk) 21:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess that depends on what you're translating, and what you can assume about your target audience - if you're translating a childrens' book, it's probably best to go easy on the Japanese vocabulary and just tell your readers that this is Mr. Yamamoto who lives in that nice house over there; if you're translating some fiction set in the Edo period, you can probably assume your readers to already know a bit about Japanese culture, and to care about the finer points of Japanese honorifics, so it's probably best to leave them untranslated. For everything in between, it's a judgement call - I'd probably lean towards leaving words like -san, -sama, -chan etc untranslated because they can probably be assumed to be widely known and understood among people interested in Japanese culture (ie, among people who are going to read a Japanese novel/watch a Japanese film), and because it's difficult to impossible to accurately translate them without losing lots of subtle connotations (on the other hand, I, being German, am constantly annoyed by English-language films set in Germany where all characters speak English but suddenly start addressing each other as "Herr Direktor" or "Herr Professor" or whatever - this completely breaks the suspension of disbelief for me because a) British/American actors rarely get the pronounciation right and b) it just painfully points out that they should have been talking German all the time. Might be interesting to hear what Japanese people think about using Japanese honorifics in English-language texts/films) -- Ferkelparade π 22:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Ginger up horses

I am interested as to where this phrase (meaning to give new life to) originated. It said on TV that it was putting a bit of ginger up horses bottom. Is that right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.200.213 (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

See gingering. Nanonic (talk) 22:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Translation from Arabic to help with identification of images

Could someone check out these user contribs (particularly the latest uploads) and say if the user's last uploads (which were never added to any article) can be identified based on the filenames in Arabic? They look like they might be of an interesting event, but I can't make heads or tails of them. (A couple may be tv screenshots based on the border and looking like they've been upsampled, but I'm not sure...) Thanks! Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

It looks like they have to do with Zamalek SC and their hardcore supporters the Ultras White Knights. It appears that Egyptian football supporters set off pyrotechnics in the stands (those in that video are for another team I think).--Cam (talk) 01:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Upon further investigation, I deleted these because several were confirmed copyright violations. (Considering the others likely weren't that important, I was able to use the nuclear option on all the user's uploads.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:54, 16 November 2011 (UTC)