Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 13

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September 13

Poker dots

Polka dot tells me the name derives from the dance known as the polka. When referring to the dance, people usually pronounce polka as it looks; but when talking about polka dots, they often pronounce it as a non-rhotic "poker".

Why do people talk of "poker dots" and not "polka dots"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Ignorance. Roger (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps eggcorn or mondegreen? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Confirmation bias? I've never heard, to my recollection, "poker" dots. Dismas|^(talk) 12:24, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused. Isn't a nonrhotic pronunciation of poker homophonous with polka? As a rhotic speaker, I would pronounce them [ˈpoʊkər] and [ˈpoʊkə] respectively. Angr (talk) 12:26, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

There's an L in polka. It's derived from the Polish word for Poland. People usually sound the L when they talk about the dance. But many ignore it when they say "polka dots". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 17:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's more likely derived from the Czech word for "little half", but there's an /l/ in there too, so your point isn't weakened. Nevertheless, as I pointed out below, in English, /l/ is often deleted between a back vowel and /k/, so people say "poka dot" for the same reason they say "foke" for "folk" and "yoke" for "yolk". But to get down to your real question, why do some people (but not all!) pronounce the polka in polka dot differently from the way they pronounce the name of the dance, I think it probably has to do with the fact that no one really associates polka dots with polkas, so there's no semantic incentive to keep the names pronounced the same, combined with the possibility of learning the words from people who speak different dialects. If someone learns about the dance from someone who calls it /pɒlkə/, then he'll pronounce it that way too; and if he learns about the dance from someone else who pronounces it /poʊkə/, then he'll pronounce that word that way. Angr (talk) 21:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Makes a lot of sense, Angr. I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons. That was only because I used "poker" to denote the way the word is sometimes pronounced, but a rhoticist would interpret that as "pokerrr", which was not what I was getting at. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:43, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It would have made even more sense if I hadn't mistyped the second half of the last sentence. It should read, "...and if he learns about the dots from someone else ...". Angr (talk) 22:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to be sure, but I think I can hear an L here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

My English is non-rhotic, I clearly pronounce the L in polka. Does rhotacism really affect the pronunciation of L as well as R?

No, but some people don't pronounce /l/ between a back vowel and /k/, as in folk, yolk, talk, balk, caulk, and older pronunciations of falcon. Angr (talk) 12:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The 'l' in polka is normally pronounced. To not pronounce it would make you non-lamda-ic, and nothing to do with non-rhotacism. I guess it's because in London English the 'l' becomes a 'w' (as it does in the original Polish, and this coalesces with the vowel, giving us 'poker'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Several American dictionaries I've just consulted confirm that polka can be pronounced with or without the /l/ in American English, while polka dot is generally pronounced without it. British dictionaries give /pɒlkə/ (with the "short o" of doll) for polka and don't give any pronunciation for polka dot at all (allowing you to infer its pronunciation from polka and dot). So at the very least, the "poke a dot" pronunciation is American. Angr (talk) 13:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Here in Milwaukee, where we take our polka seriously, the 'l' is very definitely pronounced! --Orange Mike | Talk 13:16, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

"Poker dot" may be the result of a particular American accent that tends to pronounce vowel endings with -er, as in feller (for fellow) or vaniller (for vanilla, yes I've heard this one). As an American, I myself pronounce "polka" as it's spelled, with a short L and no R. ~Amatulić (talk) 13:22, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

My fellow Americans, the people who are reporting pronunciations of "poker dot" are all people who don't pronounce rs after vowels (unless another vowel follows the r). These people have various British or Australian accents. When they say "poker", it would sound something like "poka" to Americans. Marco polo (talk) 14:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Once again proving the old addage "divided by a common language". I'd just like to add that in my native South African English it is pronounced as in the "British dictionary" quoted by Angr above. Roger (talk) 14:35, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Canadians don't do polka. We're too busy trying to keep warm. </joke> The only time I can remember when I did hear polka, it was without the l. It's always interesting to hear the large differences between dialects. Interchangeable|talk to me 14:45, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Some Canadians certainly do polka, eh! Angr (talk) 14:48, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Interchangeable, did you never watch Polka Dot Door? (In any case, in the hundreds of times they must have said "polka" in each episode, I don't think it was ever pronounced with the L sound.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:31, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I rest my case. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 17:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I never watched that show. And I hope that everyone here recognizes that that was a joke. Interchangeable|talk to me 22:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you mean "jolk"?  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow, you never watched Polka Dot Door! Now I feel really old. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not just a pronunciation thing. I have seen high school students write "poker dots", presumably writing what they think they have heard. HiLo48 (talk) 17:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not just high school students either. --Antiquary (talk) 18:11, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

As a speaker of an RP-ish kind of estuary English, I say what Jack says, polllka dance (quite a w-coloured l but still an l in there) and poka dots. Absolutely no idea why. To confound it, I would sing "yellow polllka dot bikini" were I permitted to sing. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:18, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The Schnitzel Syndrome is obviously alive and well (a phrase coined by yours truly because of menus that suggest diners may order a "snitzel" [sic], which is the way some people say it). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Jack of Oz entirely confused the issue by referring to a non-rhotic pronunciation of a non-existent phrase "poker dots." That might be a good approximation of the way the phrase is pronounced to someone who speaks a non-rhotic dialect as does he, as if what is said poka dots had dreived from poker dots. But that is not the case historically or an any English speaker's speech. His comment had nothing to do with rhotacism affecting or not affecting the /l/.

Rather, the term polka dot current since the 1850's, has simply undergone the very common phenomenon of l-dropping : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonants#L_vocalization_and_L_dropping while the term polka for the dance has retained it's /l/ due to reinforcement by foreign speakers using the non-velarized /l/ and as a foreignism.

As I child I knew how to dance a polka, and had always assumed poke a dots were meant to be poked. I was surprised to learn the actual spelling, polka dot. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for liberally garnishing my open, bleeding wounds with a generous sprinkling of the salt of your observations. I hope for your sake it tastes better now. I already voluntarily donned sackcloth and ashes by acknowledging above: "I may have confused matters by referring to non-rhotic prons ...". I never claimed the rhotacism to which I referred, or lack thereof, had anything to do with the /l/. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You must feel like you've been put on a rhotisserie. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Mmmmm, roast Jack ... aaarrrrggh (drools copiously). I must watch The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover again. A very inspiring movie. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 13:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

That reminds me. I have a friend on Facebook and she likes dancing. I must remember to polka.... --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Weird Al will write a song titled, "Polka Face". LadyofShalott 22:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Or we may one day have a dancing version of Polka-mon. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Does "President Poke" refer to this guy or this guy?  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:51, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Funnîest. Reference. Desk. Question. Ever. I'm going to preserve this in a userpage of mine, so be prepared to be humiliated for all eternity, Jack. Interchangeable|talk to me 22:58, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm changing my name (again) to Uriah Heep. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:28, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Avestan letter

Does anyone know what sound (presumably an allophone of /t/) the Avestan letter usually transcribed ‹t̰› represents? Angr (talk) 15:35, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Frustratingly, there is no indication of what a tilde under a letter means in IPA#Diacritics, so the search will probably be doubtful. Interchangeable|talk to me 22:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

In IPA, a tilde under a letter means it has creaky voice (and that is mentioned in the section you linked to), but that wouldn't make sense under a [t], and anyway, this is a conventional transliteration of an Avestan letter that probably greatly predates the IPA's usage of the subscript tilde. Angr (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

According to Mark Hale in the "Avestan" chapter of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages edited by Roger D. Woodard (2004) ISBN 0-521-56256-2, t with undertilde is "an 'unreleased' voiceless dental stop -- it is extremely limited in distribution, being regularly found only in word-final position and before certain obstruents". AnonMoos (talk) 23:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, AnonMoos. That's the info I was looking for. Angr (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing. Also, that it is not phonemic. It's a bit like all the non-phonemic nasals in Indic scripts, they're there to guide priestly pronunciation at a point where there are no native speakers left. The tilde has nothing to do with IPA, it's just an ad-hoc choice of diacritic due to, I guess, Bartholomae. --dab (𒁳) 06:21, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't think it was phonemic. (I did say "presumably an allophone of /t/" above.) I've added the info here if others would like to double-check it and correct it as necessary. Angr (talk) 06:44, 14 September 2011 (UTC)