Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 September 19

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September 19

Cascella

How to pronounce the surname of the late artist, Pietro Cascella? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

In Italian, it would be /kaʃe'lla/ /kaʃɛ'lla/. Hope this helps. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Except with the stress symbol on the second syllable: /kaˈʃɛlla/. Lesgles (talk) 16:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Dang! I always put that stress mark in the wrong place..... --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

And /ʃ/ is always geminate between vowels in Italian, so /kaʃˈʃɛlla/. (Not that that will make a difference when transliterating his name into Hebrew.) Angr (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it might at that! If the [s] closes the first syllable and the [ʃ] opens the second, the proper rendering in Hebrew would indicate the first with the letter samekh and the second with shin. I intend to consult over on the Hebrew wikipedia Language Ref Desk and report findings back here for you interested folks. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There's no [s] in it. It's just one long [ʃ]. Angr (talk) 07:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Just a bit of fun while we wait, but I've come up with this:
כאַשֶּלָּ
Probably too many dagheshes, though..... :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, not enough. There would have to be a dagesh lene in the kaph at the beginning of the word. But in fact, qoph is usually used for /k/ in foreign words, and there needs to be a silent letter like a heh or an aleph at the end so that even in unpointed text the reader knows the word ends in a vowel (so that we can distinguish Cascella from Cashel). I'd go with קַשֶּׁלָּה‎. Angr (talk) 12:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Aye, it was after I posted that I realized there should have been another daghesh in the kaph. I had thought about using qoph, but decided against it - thinking about Arabic qaf. I was also thinking of putting an aleph at the end, but definitely not a heh. Anyway, I was close, I guess (looking at it now, I have no idea why I put an aleph as second letter). I'd go with yours, though, Angr. Let's see what Deborahjay has to say about it. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

currently pursuing her PhD (etc.) at/ from a certain university?

from/at a certain university? Which preposition is the more natural one?--117.253.190.252 (talk) 13:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd go with "at". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:17, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes definitely 'at'. 'From' seems to imply the doctorate sprouting legs, and making a dash for freedom... :D AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

You "have a degree from X" (if you've finished your course) but "study at Y" (otherwise). --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a niche situation where you might say "from", if you are taking a degree accredited by a university but studying at a different institution. I know someone who is studying for a degree from Leeds Metropolitan University at Bradford College. -- Q Chris (talk) 19:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

By the by, and vis-a-vis an earlier thread, one pursues an academic qualification but not to the point of persecuting it.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:46, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Oojimy?

I have played through the text adventure game Jinxter, and have learned the spells used with the five charms, which seem to be common English placeholder names. However, one of them seems to be unusual: oojimy. Is this word really used in English? At least a Google search for oojimy yielded only results about Jinxter, whereas a search for any of the other four spells also yielded results not relating to the game. JIP | Talk 19:47, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Oojimyflip, Oojimicallit... are like "Whatjamacallit", "Thingummybob", "Wotsit". Itsmejudith (talk) 19:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yup - see Oojamaflip [1] AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

What language would be practical?

If i intended to take a trip to visit places including Antioch and Damascus, what language or languages would practically help most? I wouldn't want to be 'trapped' in English, but the only other languages I speak are French and German. It's difficult to tell from our articles on the regions what language would let you practically get by. For example, the official language of Syria is Arabic, but I gather very few people speak 'pure' Koranic Arabic, and you really need the local variant to communicate? If one learnt Syrian Arabic, for example, could one be understood in Turkey? And would ordinary people one is likely to meet speak it? Learning a language is a big investment of time for me, for all that I'd love to speak more of them, so I'd like to get an idea of how feasible this is.

For the purposes of the question, assume I'm just poking around Antakya and Damascus, plus I guess the route between them. What language would I need, practically speaking, and would it be enough to effectively communicate with most people I meet? 86.164.76.231 (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

That's a good question, what language do people speak in the Hatay region? I imagine many would speak Turkish of course, but it only joined Turkey in the 30's. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 21:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Syria#Demographics includes a link to Syrian Arabic. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

(EC) Depending on your purpose for learning, and how much time you intend to spend conversing with the locals, you may find that Egyptian Arabic will be sufficient for your needs. It is the most widely spoken colloquial dialect, and the one used on TV (except for news, of course), and music, etc., and also the one for which it is easier to find learning materials. If you learn Egyptian Arabic, you will have no trouble communicating in Damascus, or anywhere else in the Arab world. Antioch will be a different matter. I guess if you don't want to use English there, you will only be able to use Turkish, but with it being so close to the border, Arabic may prove useful. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Standard Arabic or colloquial Egyptian Arabic in Syria, and Turkish in Turkey. Arabic and Turkish are completely unrelated, though you will undoubtedly find Arabic speakers in a border town like Antioch. It would be impractical to learn the local Arabic dialect unless you plan on living there for a long time and really need to communicate directly with uneducated locals. With English, German and French, though, you'll have little trouble finding someone to communicate through. Even with English alone. I can't imagine what you have in mind when you say "trapped". English gives you quite a bit of freedom. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Turkey has been pretty successful in wiping away traces of Arabic from Hatay over the decades it has controlled the territory. Having visited the place, I can tell you Turkish is the everyday language there. But since it's also a touristic area, there are lots of persons, particularly in tourism-oriented businesses, who speak English or German - French less so. In Damascus, which I've also visited (not that you would want to go there now), the local dialect is very close to Modern Standard Arabic, i.e. the language spoken by newscasters and understood by every Arab with a primary school education. The Egyptian dialect is quite a bit different. French, English and German are spoken by some, but not nearly as many as in Antakya, given Syria has been a much more closed society than Turkey in the past 50+ years. --Xuxl (talk) 08:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Lots of German spoken in Turkey, so Arabic would probably be a better return. But Turkish is such a fun language! — kwami (talk) 23:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Syria used to be administered by France, and I once had a conversation with a Syrian woman in French because it was the only language we had in common. But I don't know how far French will really get you in Damascus. Probably farther than German at any rate. Angr (talk) 06:15, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so far. I've been holding off thanking people so far, because I didn't want to discourage anyone from answering. I'm still interested in further contributions, particularly as there doesn't seem to be a consensus above. I'm getting the impression that people agree Arabic, combined with English and German (and possibly French) will get me understood in many situations, and that although I am likely to run into some people who speak none of these in Turkey, I should almost certainly be able to find someone to translate or help if necessary? So I'd guess a few Turkish phrases, combined with learning Arabic, would be a feasible solution?

Could I hear some more on what sort of Arabic I should concentrate on? I see some suggestions that Egyptian Arabic would be best (including the suggestion that there are more easily available learning materials), and some suggestions that Modern Standard Arabic would be best. While, obviously, it's nice to know you're learning a language that has broader application, could I hear more about which would be more helpful in this situation? 86.164.60.149 (talk) 17:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

If the map at Levantine Arabic is accurate, that is the variety of Arabic spoken in both Antakya and Damascus. Angr (talk) 08:31, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I would still go with Egyptian Arabic. Based on my own experience, Egyptian Arabic is the most widely known of the colloquial dialects, and you would be understood throughout the Arabic speaking world. I used to work at a university in the UK, looking after foreign students, and many of them came from Arabic speaking countries. Most of the students from the Gulf area actually spoke Egyptian Arabic or something based on that (except, perhaps, people from Saudi or UAE or Bahrain). Moving further west, the dialects did become increasingly difficult to understand (for these students), until we get to Morocco, where only standard Arabic seemed to work. Iraq has it's own version of Arabic, but this also is heavily influenced by Egyptian. Levantine Arabic, and Syrian specifically, is odd in that the tenses of the verbs have been heavily modified to fit a European model - e.g. there is actually a present progressive compound tense, normally absent in Semitic languages. As for the learning materials, definitely Egyptian Arabic has more - due to its prominence in cultural aspects such as TV and movies, music, etc. Syrian Arabic may be of more use to you in this specific situation, but if you plan to travel to the Middle East again, and to somewhere else, I believe it would be better to learn Egyptian. Standard Arabic would be good to learn, of course, but you'd have trouble understanding people who are not from Saudi. This is all based on my experience, and I cannot provide references or citations. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

My answer above was given based on personal travel to both places, and knowledge of the various languages mentioned. You can discount it if you want. The problem with the Egyptian dialect is they may understand you, but you won't understand them... Modern standard arabic is not Saudi Arabic; it's the language used on television programs such as the news all over the Arab world. You'll be understood everywhere and everyone with a bit of education can produce it, although they don't usually talk that way themselves. However, Arabic will be pretty useless in Antakya today (it would have been different 60 years ago). Turkish is the language to know there, but barring that, you'll be able to get around with either Turkish or German as plenty of people know those two languages - French will be less useful. --Xuxl (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I did not mean to discount your input. Don't get me wrong. Every input is valid here. As for Standard Arabic, colloquial Saudi is not exactly it, but Gulf Arabic is as close to Standard Arabic as the colloquial dialects get. This is the point I was trying to make. Also, it is true that it is used on news programs across the Arabic world, but not so much for general TV, which tends to use Egyptian (and other dialects, depending on where the program is set/shot). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:46, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Is kennen lernen treated as if it were one word?

See topic. It seems that way to me, because when I wrote something like "Habt ihr euch gelernt kennen", it was incorrect, and kennen gelernt was correct. the only way that could be is if this (err... phrase?) is treated as if it were one word. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I use the word expression as an umbrella term for words, phrases, and other types of expression.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:33, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't answer the actual question I had. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

You will find kennenlernen listed as a verb in German dictionaries. It behaves like other separable verbs. In this case, kennen is the separable prefix. Separable verbs form past participles, such as kennengelernt (all one word) by compounding the prefix with the past participle of the main verb. Marco polo (talk) 22:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Whoa whoa, seriously? O_O Es ist ein trennbares verb?! That thought hadn't crossed my mind. I'm used to things like um, aus, an, etc being separable prefixes. Any other unusal trennbares Verbs? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, while this verb was once always spelled kennenlernen, since the reform it can also be spelled kennen lernen. You have free choice; the choice of spelling does not express any nuances. (The old spelling is the one recommended by Duden.)

This is not an unusual verb at all except it is one of a relatively small number for which the old spelling is still allowed. Some other verbs formed in the same way: schwimmen gehen, liegen lassen, sitzen bleiben. Whether it's spelled together or not does not matter for how you form past tenses, and never did, to my knowledge. You say: schwimmen gegangen, liegen gelassen, sitzen geblieben.

I don't know what pattern you were overgeneralising when you were saying "gelernt kennen", as I can't immediately think of any similar expressions that would be handled like that in German. Therefore it looks like a confusion between Imperfekt (simple past) and Perfekt (present perfect) to me. You actually do say lernte kennen, ging schwimmen, ließ liegen, blieb sitzen. Hans Adler 23:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, schwimmen gehen, but I don't know the others. I think we say setzen for taking a seat. I don't think we have learned das Imperfekt yet though. Probably later in the year. I was talking putting it as first verb then subject or w/e [third verb in English] [Second verb in English]. The way I figure is that the basic sequence of verbs at the end of the sentence are in the reverse order of what they would be in English. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

No, they are not reversed. They are only reversed in Imperfekt, but not in Perfekt. This may be one of the reasons why Perfekt is getting more and more popular in German, to the point that Imperfekt has basically died out in many southern dialects. Hans Adler 23:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

BTW, sich setzen and sitzen bleiben mean different things. Sich setzen is to take a seat, to move from a standing position to a sitting position; it's a dynamic verb referring to an action. Sitzen bleiben is to remain seated, to not get up from a sitting position; it's a stative verb referring to a state. Sitzen itself refers to the state of being seated too, but it doesn't have the "remain" meaning of sitzen bleiben. Angr (talk) 23:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

"Sitzen bleiben" can also mean... having to repeat a school year... Does English have a word/phrase for this "phenomenon"? If it does, I can't think of it right now. EDIT: I think it's "being left back" or something like that. A shoutout to Everybody Loves Raymond. ElMa-sa (talk) 08:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

What about the simple past? Would you really say Ich schwimmenging? I'm guessing no? --Trovatore (talk) 23:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC) Never mind; I didn't read your last sentence carefully. --Trovatore (talk) 23:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)