Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 August 13

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August 13

Correct pronoun

In the sentence below, which pronoun is correct — "its" or "their" — and why?

• Bahrain, Botswana, Cyprus, Gabon, Grenada, Guatemala, and Montenegro each won its first Olympic medal ever, with Grenada's being gold.
• Bahrain, Botswana, Cyprus, Gabon, Grenada, Guatemala, and Montenegro each won their first Olympic medal ever, with Grenada's being gold.

Thank you! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:41, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

"Each" is singular, so the first version is correct. Looie496 (talk) 15:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I would argue that the countries in question constitute the subject, and 'each' only gives additional information, therefore 'their' is correct. Compare the sentence 'They were given a dollar each'. If 'each' were the subject, we would have to write 'They is given a dollar each', which is clearly in error.

EDIT: just checked the Oxford Dictionary of English, which gives as an example: 'they each have their own personality'. - Lindert (talk) 16:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Lindert, if indeed your interpretation above is correct ... then what happens to the word "medal"? Does it remain singular or must it change to the plural, "medals"? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

As indicated by the ODE above, medal should be singular, like "they each have their own personality", not personalities - Lindert (talk) 16:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you're using the wrong argument to get to the right answer. The parallel example would be "John, Charles and Egbert each has his own personality". Replace the multiple singular subjects with a single plural subject, and only then can you say "They each have their own personality". In Joseph's question, we have multiple singular subjects, hence "... each won its first Olympic medal ever".

A different but equally valid approach could have been "... all won their first Olympic medals ever". I think I'd prefer that construction if I were emphasising how many countries finally medalled this year. But with no special emphasis, Joseph's example is perfectly fine. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:59, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So are you saying that multiple singular subjects behave differently from one plural subject? If a plural verb is used in both cases, why not a plural pronoun? I mean, we don't say 'Mary and Joe likes pizza', but 'Mary and Joe like pizza', so multiple subjects result in a plural verb. As the pronoun refers to the subject of the sentence, why should the pronoun not be plural as well? - Lindert (talk) 20:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

This is where the special magic of "each" comes into its own. The original question could have been written as, wait for it:

• Bahrain won its first Olympic medal ever, Botswana won its first Olympic medal ever, Cyprus won its first Olympic medal ever, Gabon won its first Olympic medal ever, Grenada won its first Olympic medal ever, Guatemala won its first Olympic medal ever, and Montenegro won its first Olympic medal ever, with Grenada's being gold.

What "each" does is cut out all the repetition of words, but it retains the essential syntax. The verb is still the singular "its".

In "Mary and Joe like pizza", the subject is plural hence the verb has to be the plural "like". But we could say "Mary and Joe each likes pizza", a shorthand way of saying "Mary likes pizza and Joe likes pizza". In practice, we'd probably prefer to say "Both Mary and Joe like pizza". but we're discussing technicalities here. A lotta people confuse, conflate and equate "both" and "each", with "all" often in the mix as well. Bad moves. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I am surprised to see no mention of singular they here. Many do not consider the use of singular they correct; personally, I have no issue with it and will use it freely. As it has no regulating body, there is no prescribed standard of English that is objectively correct. If you have some sort of style guide to stick to or whatever, it will likely warn against use of singular they, so "its" would be the correct form. §5.46 in the 16th ed. Chicago Manual of Style is actually devoted entirely to this, and reads:

A singular antecedent requires a singular referent pronoun. Because he is no longer accepted as a generic pronoun referring to a person of either sex, it has become common in speech and in informal writing to substitute the third-person plural pronouns they, them, their, and themselves, and the nonstandard singular themself. While this usage is accepted in casual contexts, it is still considered ungrammatical in formal writing. Avoiding the plural form by alternating masculine and feminine pronouns is awkward and only emphasizes the inherent problem of not having a generic third-person pronoun. Employing an artificial form such as s/he is distracting at best, and most readers find it ridiculous. There are several better ways to avoid the problem. For example, use the traditional, formal he or she, him or her, his or her, himself or herself. Stylistically, this device is usually awkward or even stilted, but if used sparingly it can be functional. For other techniques, see 5.225.

§5.225, if you're wondering, is Nine techniques for achieving gender neutrality. At any rate, the original sentence actually works just fine without "each", which would make "their" correct, and eliminate the question of which form to use entirely. I'd probably do that, unless you're writing for someone who really hates singular they, in which case I might do that anyway just to irritate them and see if they change it themselves, bwahaha.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 04:51, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and fun fact: the Finns don't even worry about this, because both "he" and "she" are hän—all Finnish pronouns are gender-neutral.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 05:03, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Each is being used as an adverb here, hence it does not affect the number of the verb. Compare "Bahrain, Botswana, Cyprus, Gabon, Grenada, Guatemala, and Montenegro individually won their first Olympic medal ever". Each can also be used as an adjective: "Each country won its first medal". And as a pronoun: "In regards to the seven countries of Bahrain, Botswana, Cyprus, Gabon, Grenada, Guatemala, and Montenegro, each won its first metal." Only in the last case, as a pronoun, does it determine the number of the verb as singular. The proper way to do analyses like these is not to go straight to the rules, but rather to find a valid analogy with an unambiguos interpretation, like the word individually, which makes it clear that each is an adverb and not a pronoun in the original example. μηδείς (talk) 05:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

To μηδείς ... so, which are you saying is correct? Mary and Joe each likes pizza ... or ... Mary and Joe each like pizza ... ? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

In your example Joseph, each is an adverb, (again, try replacing with individually which is also unambiguously an adverb) not a pronoun, so it does not affect the number of the verb, which is plural: "Mary and Joe each like pizza" If you said, "As for Mary and Joe, each likes pizza", you would be using it as a(n inherently singular) pronoun which governs the singular verb. μηδείς (talk) 01:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

"me and you" or "you and me"?

Like in "imagine me and you" or "imagine you and me". OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It's generally considered impolite to mention oneself first, therefore people use 'you and me' and not 'me and you'. - Lindert (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So, why the song/film?

Well, it's not a hard rule, so maybe it was used to fit the rhyme of the song ('Imagine You and Me' was taken from Happy Together):

In "Imagine me and you, I do", 'you' and 'do' form an internal rhyme. - Lindert (talk) 18:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

"You and me" is more idiomatic than "me and you" in my experience, but neither is "incorrect". The line "Imagine me and you", from the song "Happy Together" by the Turtles, is probably written that way for the purpose of rhyming:

Imagine me and you, I do

I think about you day and night, it's only right...

A lesser-known example of this usage is the song "Me and You and a Dog Named Boo" by singer-songwriter Lobo. Again, "me and you" fits better with the rhyming structure than "you and me". The songwriters are not making a grammatical error; they're simply taking a little bit of license to help with the rhyming. szyslak (t) 18:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It really depends on whether "me and you" is used nominatively or objectively. The lyrics suggest it's the former, in which case it should be "You and I and a dog named Boo", but that doesn't have an internal rhyme. Maybe we can say that songs have their own grammar. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 19:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

See disjunctive pronoun and always extend your pinky while drinking tea from a cup. μηδείς (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Except that we don't call them 'pinkies' in the land of etiquette. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Why are we talking about pinkies all of a sudden? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 04:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I was giving an example of a rather silly arbitrary rule to go along with never saying the first person pronoun first. μηδείς (talk) 01:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think about the whole nominative-accusative issue. Then again, in "Happy Together" the "me and you" construction is always accusative or used in isolation ("Me and you, and you and me / No matter how they toss the dice, it had to be". Whatever; it's a great song! :-) szyslak (t) 00:20, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Never My Love μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the regulars at RD/L could write a book on English pronoun usage as illustrated by top hits of the 60s. szyslak (t) 08:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting that the title should, grammatically, be :"Never, My Love". Without the comma as given it means something else entirely. μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That seems to happen with titles of things. Such as the Christmas song everyone knows as "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen", but really should be "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I always assumed it meant "God rest you, merry gentlemen." μηδείς (talk) 21:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Nope, it's like "May God make you happy, gentlemen". Rest assured that this is the original intention. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 04:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

"Imagine you and I (verb) ... " is proper -- Many folks ignore the nominative case after the verb "to be" or its equivalents. Collect (talk) 23:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

No. The first person pronoun here should be accusative, as it is the object of the imperative verb 'imagine'. You would never say 'Imagine I,' so why say 'Imagine you and I'? 'Imagine you and I are running....' may be acceptable, but not 'Imagine you and I running', because you would never say 'Imagine I running.' KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)