Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 December 3

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December 3

Latin wikipedia

Is there a place where I can ask for help? The administrators (magisters) over at the latin wiki are a bit extreme, or cultic. I'm sure my grammar is correct but they seem to abuse this dub sig notifications. In this instance, there is no 'classic latin' word for identity. Identitas is considered new or medieval latin. This is not the only instance of abuse but there are others. The article was 'improved by the way' meaning a lot of the core ideas were simply removed. So you have great grammar with hardly any content. Thanks.--Jondel (talk) 02:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry for your trouble. Perhaps you could get help at Meta, located at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page which is supposed to be the website run by Wikimedia to coordinate among all Wikimedia projects. English Wikipedia does not have power over Latin Wikimedia, and we have no power to do anything over there; if things are going "badly", I'm not sure anyone here can help, but Meta would be where I would go if I needed the kind of help you seem to need. --Jayron32 02:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Embassy, which confirms the link provided in the previous reply and has additional information and links.

—Wavelength (talk) 04:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Wavelength and Jayron. I'm going over to wikimedia and then I'll check out the embassy.--Jondel (talk) 06:40, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It can get a bit extreme over there, but it does help sometimes to ask questions on their version of the Village Pump/Reference Desk, the Taberna. You can ask questions there in English. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been there a few years, a few would agree at the taberna. I feel the administrator/magister is not that good with his latin and when he sees a new latin/medieval latin word, boom, there would be another of those dugsig notifications. I'm determined to write modern articles like firewall, network packet data, etc. Its crippling. Anyway I've already notified some people as well as make an appropriate suggestion (PLEASE GO JUMP IN THE RIVER!!)to the administrator in question.--Jondel (talk) 13:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

You might be interested in Latin Wikipedia, although of course I can't help you with the exact question any more than anyone else. Remember you are doing something that no one is going to read except for the Latin itself, so if that is in short supply, let me know. It strikes me as rather unlikely that you will get agreement on Latin neologisms if there is no practical use for them anyway (except maybe at the Vatican, if you call that practical: they write in English, and translate into Latin, and call that the official version, so I'm told). IBE (talk) 15:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The OP is reporting difficulties being encountered at "the latin wiki". Is this not Latin Wikipedia? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed there is a difference. See Wikipedia:Don't abbreviate Wikipedia as Wiki.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course I'm aware there are many wikis, of which Wikipedia is merely one, albeit prima inter pares. But the header says "Latin wikipedia" and some of the previous answers also assume the OP is reporting difficulties he's having at specifically Latin Wikipedia, not just some other wiki that's written in Latin. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course Jack is right, obviously we are talking about the Latin Wikipedia. Anyway, IBE also has a good point...I don't want to say "don't bother", but isn't it kind of pointless to write about modern computer terms in Latin? Personally, I have no opposition to making up Latin words (I am a medieval historian after all!), but there's a skill to it, and even the best medieval and Renaissance and neo-Latin writers used pre-existing classical words whenever possible. Also, the "dubsig" notification is not meant to be an insult to you personally, it's just a note that the Latin can be improved, if anyone happens to be able to improve it. Lastly, I think part of the problem is that there is no common language at the Latin Wikipedia...it seems like people can be a bit rude, but only because there are communication difficulties. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

For modern computer terms, there is this page: "Vocabula computatralia".

—Wavelength (talk) 00:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC) and 00:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That's a useful list, but it's pretty old and relatively basic. In this case the problem was about IPv6, which is too advanced and too recent for that particular list. You'll find that users of the Latin Wikipedia vehemently disagree with much of it anyway. If you want to see a Latinist truly enraged, suggest forming new words with the suffix "-atrum", haha. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I am very interested in Latin wikipedia that is why I'm here but I need to discuss this outside, they tend to be extremist purist. The Vatican (and other latin users and institutes)won't need to write in English in the future if they can research the correct article at vicipaedia in the future! I believe there will be a practical use for the neologisms in the future.

An ideal common language is possible. Use the classic/dictionary/textbook/Ciceronian/Ceasarian words /forms /idioms much as possible since this is textbook and common and ideal. Use medieval /new/church latin when no other option is available.

Some people are challenged by Mount Everest, or take up Klingon or Esperanto. I'm into Latin because is challenging and 'educative' and really, there is a vast amount of literature, like exploring another world in Latin. I can't take something which is considered 'easy'. For the same reason, Im attracted to German which I don't know (save for a few phrases). There are many active internet latin language communities, not only vicipaedia, but also for example in facebook.

Thanks Wavelength for those computer terms but we're overly familiar with that list over at the vicipaedia. Thanks Adam,Jack OZ and IBE for your inputs. There is no need to feel rudeness, except when extremist purists gets insulted by bad medieval/new latin; because a lot of the communication is in English, sometimes Italian, German and well, Latin.--Jondel (talk) 02:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Jondel -- I've done a little bit of editing on Latin Wikipedia (mostly not on modern topics), and found it difficult even to decide whether symbolus really meant "symbol" in common modern meanings of the English word; in the end, I just went with a vague use of signum... AnonMoos (talk) 05:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Symbolus should be accepted! They're too much! In my case the idea to translate was Identity. Normaly you would use identitas, but our cultist purist friends attached a dubsig. After a lot of research then proposing symbolus (for the meaning of 'identity')at the Taberna (latin village pump) , Identitas got accepted. So much trouble! The source of the trouble is that the purist latinists harass when they see non classicist words! How are we going to write about antigravity, firewall, nanoparticles, etc??? The purists need to accept that new words need to be accepted! --Jondel (talk) 08:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I had purely internal doubts about "symbolus" (no one else was involved)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Jondel, it's not really any different from translating into any other language, except that Latin is not a living language and has a relatively fixed corpus of words we can use. Just because a single word exists for something in English doesn't mean a single word has to exist in Latin (or any other language - some of these words need a three- or four-word phrase even in a very similar modern language like French). The "purists" are trying to make sure that everything on the Latin Wikipedia is good Latin. If you make up words that are based on English, that's not really Latin. They're just trying to help. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The issue with symbolus 9and symbolum) is that its meaning is not as close to the modern English symbol as the Latin word signum is. Out modern word does not map cleanly back onto its classical stem. The classical words mean items that correspond to each other in a part-and-counterpart fashion, like a signet and a seal, or a call and a response. The modern semiotic use is more a form of metaphor, where the symbol stands for its referent, but there's not necessarily anything about the referent separately to suggest the symbol. Signum is the better match for this concept. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think the overall problem is rather easily solved by using the English or appropriate name, such as firewall, with a literal "parietem ignis" and full definition in Latin. If people have a problem even with that they need RfC'ing. μηδείς (talk) 01:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Well actually that's part of the problem, why assume that English should be used as a base, or that everyone can understand English? It's not just an offshoot of en.wiki, as if it's a bunch of English speakers writing in Latin. What use would it be to say "firewall" there? What about the monolingual French or Italian or German speakers? (In fact, a lot of communication on la.wiki takes place in Latin simply because that's the only common language.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You may have noticed (maybe you didn't) that I did say "the English or appropriate name", meaning that the article on tsunami would be entitled tsunami, not tidal wave, while firewall would be in English because the computer usage was originally coined in English. Of course there will be hard cases and bitter debates, but that's the nature of Digital Maoism. μηδείς (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Could you guys be more active there? I fear the magisters over there are taking advantage of the few members and may abuse. Identitas is now accepted, I negotiated with the admin/magister involved, seems a bit ok for now. I will be putting that firewall article probably next week. thanks . I will use ignis murum, something like that, or just plain 'firewall'.--Jondel (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Could you guys just witness the cabal in action? Right now, they will insist that gemini fictia and gemini real person should be kept separate at the taberna. Same for the reges (kings). They are not clear about why the are distinct. When I complain , this other guys posts this wikipedia policy of nobody can own the articles. dis lil piggy has tuh go home in a while.--Jondel (talk) 13:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You have my sympathy, but I just don't have the time. I do suggest as moral support you read Jaron Lanier's You Are Not a Gadget. μηδείς (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, why not distinguish real and fictional people? We do that in categories on the English Wikipedia, at least. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The gemini ficitia was not under the gemini category. Now it is after a lot of tough negotiation at the taberna.

This is similar. The fictitious kings has no 'king' category because they are not real.

For modern usage of Latin, please see the following.

• Nuntii Latini at Nuntii Latini etusivu | YLE Radio 1 | yle.fi
• EPHEMERIS. Nuntii Latini universi.
• LATINITAS VIVA

—Wavelength (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Salve Wavelength, de ligaminis tuis, gratias tibi ago.

Look at this [1] edits by an administrator who likes to put bad latin notices in other articles (including mine). How does Fide replace Psychologia ??--Jondel (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

This is an article about a lady who is a twin of an alien, presented as a true encyclopedic article. The extraterrestrials help the sculptress to do her work! What is the limit guys?--Jondel (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Chinese word for "crisis"

Can some Chinese speaker confirm or review the article linked above? It seems an issue that many people got wrong. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi! Can I ask what is upsetting you? I can read some Chinese through Japanese.--Jondel (talk) 12:49, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm only a learner of Chinese, but you might take a look at this page.

I waited overnight to see if the time difference would bring a comment from a Chinese native speaker. Since it hasn't, I'll chime in. I am only at an intermediate level with Mandarin, though my reading level may be a little higher. Chinese written compounds often include characters with multiple meanings. Those meanings often derive from the ways in which the characters are used in compounds, but it often isn't valid to extrapolate a character's meaning from one compound to another. The idea that 危机 means "danger opportunity" is probably wrong. The character 危 has a narrow range of meanings around "dangerous" or "risky". However, 机 has a very large number of meanings, many of which have no obvious connection to each other. The original definition of the traditional version (機) of this simplified character seems to be either "desk" or "loom". From "loom" developed definitions such as "mechanism", "machine", or "pivot". From "pivot" a number of figurative definitions developed, centered around "pivotal point" or "critical point". This gave rise to compounds such as 机会 （"opportunity", composed of characters meaning "pivotal point" and a second character with many meanings including "coming together" and "be possible") and 危机, meaning "crisis". While 机 forms part of a different compound meaning "opportunity", I think that it's probably incorrect that this character alone means "opportunity" in the compound 危机. I agree with the Wikipedia article that the sense of 机 in 危机 is probably more like "pivotal point" or "critical point". As I say, however, I am not a native speaker. Marco polo (talk) 16:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I only know a little Chinese, but the sources used in that article are fairly authoritative. Victor Mair is a respected sinologist and the general editor of the ABC Chinese Dictionary. He regularly posts about problems of Chinese-English translation on Language Log. Lesgles (talk) 19:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Victor Mair is a polemicist. A good portion of his posts at Language Log are dedicated to 'debunking' common beliefs about the Chinese language, such as that its dialects don't constitute separate languages. He is also known for trying to prove some formative Indo-European influence on Chinese, and the presence of ancient "European" people in western China. On the character side, he's a relentless advocate of the alphabetization of Chinese. While it appears that he's qualified to comment, he pretty explicitly puts his views outside of the Sinological mainstream. Shrigley (talk) 22:59, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

My first language is Chinese. Marco polo's analysis is correct - 机 simply means "turning/pivotal/important point", it can form compounds meaning "opporutnity" as well as "crisis", and other compounds such as "secret" (机密) or "scheming/calculating" (心机), it would be a stretch to say any of these is the meaning of 机 itself without more. Incidentally, I seem to remember this question being asked before on the language desk. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:29, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I imagine that it will be asked again! —Tamfang (talk) 20:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

French translation

Can someone help me translate this page? Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Voilà:

During his first meetings with the head of the Protestant mission, the representative of France had to note with surprise that he was in the presence not of a man with religious conviction, but of an ambition seeker, who was only using his prestige as the head of a religious group to satisfy his thirst for power and his personal appetites, hostile to any idea of annexation, with an interest in the country's remaining Tahitian, convinced that if the event that he was expecting (the death of the king) came about, he would be the true master in Tahiti, whether the regency was vested in Mme Marau or the crown was passed to the young princess Teriivaetua, the daughter of one of the king's brothers, the possible heiress of the throne of the Pomares, whom the Protestant mission was raising at the house of the pastor M. Brun, on the neighboring island of Moorea.

It was necessary to act accordingly, without losing a moment. The chiefs, convened at first for July 5, 1880, were, on June 26, urgently notified (and for good reason) to present themselves in Papeete on June 29, at 8 a.m. All were present, and at 8:40, in the palace of the government, the act putting France in definitive possession of the island of Tahiti and its dependencies was signed. M. Chessé had skillfully prevailed over the opposition.

The same day, at noon, on Bruat Square, before the entire population of the town, in the presence of the King, the commissioner of the French government, the representatives of the foreign powers, the functionaries of every order and rank, the officers of all ranks, the French flag was hoisted by two Tahitian chiefs, to the repeated cry of "Vive la France". Two notables were missing from this patriotic ceremony: the consul of His Britannic Majesty and the chief. . .

Lesgles (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Arabic help

Hi! At http://www.eli.wayne.edu/about/arabic.php what would the Arabic for Wayne State be? WhisperToMe (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

جامعة وين ستيت Lesgles (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

جامعة ولاية وين might be better. Wrad (talk) 20:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! WhisperToMe (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Personal distress

Would you native English speakers say that the most important meaning of personal distress is the distress experienced by a person? I'm struggling with the second part of the defintion in the article and I don't know if my struggle is a result of my lack of knowledge of the English language... Lova Falk talk 20:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Personal distress, from what is written in that article, seems to mean the distress Person A feels based on the emotional state of Person B. That is, if Jimmy gets angry, and Billy is negatively affected by Jimmy's anger, that is "personal distress" for Billy. --Jayron32 21:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

That's what that article says, but certainly isn't what it means to me. I agree with the OP's def. I suspect a case of psychiatry redefining a common term in a way incompatible with the original meaning. StuRat (talk) 00:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The issue is that only the psychiatric sense will have reputable sources. The common meaning is not usually studied as much as a scientific object. --Lgriot (talk) 09:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Is the phrase even used outside of psychiatric contexts? When an ordinary person is experiencing distress, I've never heard anyone refer to it as "personal distress", anymore than they'd talk about someone's "personal pain" or "personal grief" or whatever. The personal bit is assumed. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It is actually used here in Wikipedia articles:

• Serge Reggiani gave "a few concerts despite his deteriorated health and personal distress".
• Eugene C. Barker was a generous person. Few "who ever went to him in personal distress failed to receive assistance."

And it is just like Lgriot says, I cannot find one good source with the common meaning. My opinion is that the definition of personal distress in the article is a specific case of personal distress. But that is just my Point Of View... Lova Falk talk 19:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I've added "In psychology" to the beginning of the lead sentence, for context. (Almost all the refs are to psychology journals.) Duoduoduo (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll unwatch this page. It causes too much personal distress... Lova Falk talk 10:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

bat for the other team

What is the etymology of "bats for your team"?108.173.62.44 (talk) 23:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I expect it derives from cricket. An American using it would refer to baseball, though. Looie496 (talk) 00:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The form in your heading is more common: wikt:bat for the other team. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Although that definition doesn't really explain the nuances of the phrase, which in general means being of a sexual persuasion different from yourself (or from the person you're talking about). "I thought she was really cute, but she bats for the other team." 216.93.234.239 (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I've only ever heard it used of people who might otherwise be assumed to be straight but are in fact gay. Not the other way around. That's probably because people are generally assumed to be "normal" unless there's evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever assumes someone is gay unless the contrary is proven - outside of special contexts such as the keynote speaker at the World Gay Conference. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It certainly produced considerable confusion last time I heard someone use it at the UK's national bisexual conference. (I'm not kidding.) AlexTiefling (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If someone is "batting for the other team" among a bunch of bisexuals, wouldn't that make them asexual? How many more teams are there? :) Matt Deres (talk) 16:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough, there were some asexuals at the conference. I think the speaker meant that the person they were talking about had a monosexual orientation opposite to that of a group they were with (probably a gay person in straight company, but I don't recall); but it was weird enough in that setting that the idiom was remarked upon. I think there may be enough teams for a small league, but at least one team would have to be 'people who are more interested in picking sides than in being a good sport'. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

There's plenty of that, no matter which team you bat for.

I'm reminded of the mother who proudly proclaimed "I have three children, one of each sex". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I would think the term would be more like "bats from the other side [of home plate]", especially as someone who is a practicing bisexual is said to "swings both ways" (a double-meaning all by itself) or a "switch-hitter" (someone who bats from either side of the plate). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)