Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 July 17

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July 17

Is the "schwa" completely absent from Jamaican English

Vowels of Jamaican Patois. from Harry (2006:128)

I notice that Jamaicans pronounce definite vowel sounds where British and American speakers would reduce this to a schwa. I have found some [websites that support this observation]. This made me wonder - is Jamaican English completely schwa free? Does this extend to other Caribbean accents? -- Q Chris (talk) 10:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Our Jamaican Patois article has a vowel chart in it without a schwa. I don't exactly have access to a large number of speakers (or any number, for that matter) so I can't completely verify this, but it's possible.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 03:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a difference between Jamaican Patois, which is an English-based creole not mutually intelligible with English, and the more and less standard varieties of Jamaican English. There is a continuum between the two. The pure patois only has the common Latin-style five vowel system, with no schwa, but it does have syllabic consonants, as the /l/ in bottle, which is often analyzed as being a schwa plus /l/. I have heard Jamaicans in NYC whose only pure vowels are the five of the chart. μηδείς (talk) 03:30, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• A related question: Does that mean that speakers of Jamaican English or Jamaican Patois don't have any form of Vowel reduction at all, or do they use some other vowel than the schwa as the target vowel when reducing. I ask because many dialects of American English use the schwi more than a true schwa as a reduced vowel, and I was wondering if one of the above noted vowels served the same purpose of as the schwa does in terms of vowel reduction. --Jayron32 12:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

"Schwi"? Brilliant! To answer your question, it can't just be a lack of vowel reduction, or they would have the 11 or so vowels of seat, sit, set, sate, sat, salsa, sought, soak, soot, suit and sup. It has to be a reanalysis as is typical in creolization. You can hear that Jamaican English speakers do not reduced the vowel in the simple regular past tense -ed. Listen to this clip where one Jamaican English speaker says /wantɛd/ for wanted where I would say /wʌntɨd/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIg2SOQPzvM&feature=related. I don't have a source or any expertise in the area, perhaps someone else can give details. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Margareta Hasbjörnsdatter

Is the name Margareta Hasbjörnsdatter in its Old Norse form? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 18:32, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Datter is the modern Danish and Norwegian form (dotter in Nynorsk). The old Norse would be dóttir. V85 (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

How about the Margareta part and Hasbjörns part?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Could someone translate the name into its Old Norse form and Danish form? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:16, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Swedish "Hasbjörn" is nearly identical in Danish—Hasbjørn. "Margareta" is already close, too; the Danish form is Margrethe (and the Norwegian form, if you care, is Margrete), so in the Danish form we'd have Margrethe Hasbjørnsdatter. Strictly speaking, Icelandic is not the same as Old Norse, but it is in most respects quite close; there, the name would be Margrét Ásbjörn. Note that "Hasbjörn" appears to be itself a modification of Åsbjörn / Aasbjørn / etc, while only the original Ásbjörn form seems to exist in Icelandic, and thus it is almost certainly the form that would have appeared in Old Norse as well; thus I would expect Margrét Ásbjörnsdóttir.  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 02:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Klingon question

How would you say "As if I wouldn't know!" in Klingon? JIP | Talk 20:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't even know what that means in English. Looie496 (talk) 03:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It would mean "Of course I know!" KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Three minutes of research with a 1992 book yields jISovbe'chugh as a partial translation... AnonMoos (talk) 04:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably something like "We will see if you still think I am ignorant when your head hangs from my belt." Gandalf61 (talk) 14:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)