Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 July 25

Language desk
< July 24	<< Jun | July | Aug >>	July 26 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 25

Dustman's hat

What is a dustman's hat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.27.211.61 (talk) 00:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Like http://www.rosemerena.org/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/goodolddays4.gif. And that's a dustman's 'at, by the way. You must get the accent right. Looie496 (talk) 02:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If you're talking about the lyrics of My Old Man's a Dustman, then I don't think it means any more than "a hat worn by a dustman". Even more mysterious are the "gor blimey trousers". Rojomoke (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That's because they are Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 26#Cor blimey trousers. But it might have originally been gorblimey. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Trousers that inspire a minced oath derived from God blind me!. —Tamfang (talk) 08:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Real Cockneys (not Mockneys) are more likely to say something that sounds closer to "dastman" than "dustman". Then again, I am a real Cockney and I say "dustman". We don't all sew stuff on our clothes, either. Cockneys in a marketplace selling stuff by the pound (weight) for £1 will shout something that sounds like "a pan a pan". And we come from "Landon". Further to the speculation in that old WP:RD/L link, I'd guess that cor-blimey trousers is a pun on corduroy. But that's 100% OR. --Dweller (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Also as worn by Stanley Holloway as Alfred P Doolittle in My Fair Lady (film). I dont know if it has a special name, but it's clearly designed to protect the dustman's head and neck from stuff falling out of bins (in the days when they lifted the bins onto their shoulders to tip them into the dust cart, rather than pulling them along on wheels and letting machinery do the lifting). A drawing of a more extravagant example is shown here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's called a fan-tail (or fan-tailed) hat. We don't (yet) have an article on it, but it is listed in our list of headgear. The OED has only one citation, but Googling "fan-tailed hat" confirms this usage.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

tʃ and ʨ

What's the difference between the voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate and the simple tʃ? The recording on the VAPA article sounds to me just as if the speaker were saying tʃatʃ. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you could give a link to the article you're talking about? μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I did. It's the only link in my question, aside from the links to my userspace. Nyttend (talk) 02:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but when I look up the VAPA article, it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Oh, never mind. I see what you meant. μηδείς (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I still can't listen to the audio, even after having downloaded the driver from Java. I have my guesses about the difference in pronunciation from the written description, but don't want to give you polno hovno. Maybe someone can suggest why I, who use windows 7 on a gateway nv78, am having such trouble listening to the file? μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nyttend: Unless you have an extraordinarily sensitive and well trained ear, it's going to take you a long time to recognize the difference between tʃ and ʨ, especially in recordings. It's just too subtle a difference for the ear of an English speaker. You're just going to have to take it on faith that the difference is enormous and easily recognizable by natives of languages that distinguish the sounds. It took me months of hard practice to learn to distinguish and reproduce these sounds when I was learning Polish, and even after ten years of living in the country, I still have difficulty pronouncing them correctly. For that matter, try convincing a Polish learner of English that the English words "bad", "bat", "bed" and "bet" are all pronounced very differently, and you'll get a blank stare. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Is there any effort to create images of mouths as they produce certain sounds? I might better be able to understand this sound if I could be given a visual depiction of how I could approximate ʨ. Nyttend (talk) 12:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about pictures, but I can describe how to make the sound. The tʃ sound is made by placing the tip of the tongue on the palatal ridge, and the ʨ is made the exact same way, but with a spot more in the middle of the tongue. Try it and see if you can hear and feel the difference. Bakmoon (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

@Nyttend: That's not going to help you much, either. The difference is far too subtle for an English speaker to hear. You're going to have to have a real live speaker of Polish (or other language with these sounds) sit in front of you for hours over several days before you can reliably recognize the difference, and for a lot more hours over the space of a month or more before you can reliably reproduce it. At first, you might hear no difference at all. Like I said, even after ten years of speaking Polish living in Poland, I still have some problem with pronouncing it correctly unless I speak slowly and deliberately. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I just found Bakmoon's suggestion very helpful, and have no problem telling the difference between the two sounds pronounced. μηδείς (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

As an English speaker who can tell the difference between these sounds, I have found it frustrating to try to get other people to say them when telling them about such-and-such word in whatever language I happen to be studying / discussing with them: "No, you're saying [tʃ], it's [tɕ]." "Oh, OK, so it's [tʃ]." "That's the same sound as the first one you made!" At least to my ear, the way [tɕ] is articulated causes it to sound slightly more "high-pitched" almost. It has that very characteristically Russian palatal noise to it, if you're familiar with that, though I doubt that description is particularly helpful for someone who cannot already differentiate the sounds. Bakmoon's description of the way the sound is created is good, and will likely cause many people to generate the sound correctly. (There is always that small risk when giving people descriptions of how to make a sound that they will exaggerate it and produce some other sound though, which is why it's easiest when you can hear the sound as the person is making it.)  dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 08:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I've searched for Serbo-Croatian samples on Forvo. In most Serbian dialects, <ć> /tɕ/ and <č> /tʂ/ are well-distinguished: you will certainly hear the difference in čokančić, and possibly hear the difference or /tɕ/ from English /tʃ/. Also check out Đoković, featuring /dʑ/. In many Croatian dialects, there is a merger. For example, both speakers pronounce Mohorovičić (Andrija Mohorovičić) with [...tʃitʃ]. However, the female at Boris Ljubičić has pretty clear [...tʂitɕ]. Hope this helps. No such user (talk) 09:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Help discussing with another user in Turkish

If you can help, please visit Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Odd_edits. Understanding of association football is not required! Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 09:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Anabolic effect

I often heard that doing squat has the anabolic effect on biceps. Here, what is the meaning of "Anabolic effect" or "Anabolic"? Thanks--180.234.204.204 (talk) 10:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the meaning you have in mind for "doing squat"? I can think of at least 2 equally likely meanings. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Embiggening. The word anabolic originates from the Greek for mound, and anabolism speaks of "building up". (I have no idea why a leg exercise would build up the arm muscles, but I won't question these things in case I'm made to try them. ) Card Zero  (talk) 15:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

• Anabolic effects are generally thought of as hormonal changes that promote muscle growth, such as increases in testosterone. In a strictly technical sense, though, any type of muscle growth is an anabolic process, regardless of what produces it. Any type of weightlifting causes anabolic effects that promote muscle growth throughout the body, but the effects are not likely to be very large on muscles that are not directly exercised. Doing bicep exercises is likely to have a much larger effect. By the way, there are many different kinds of squats, as described in our squat (exercise) article. Looie496 (talk) 15:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

However, "doing squat" also has an informal meaning of "doing absolutely nothing". Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hence my question above, seeking to know what the OP meant by that expression. The answers will vary wildly depending on what they're actually asking about. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Precisely, Jack; Looie and Card Zero didn't seem to observe your question. Nyttend (talk) 06:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I observed it, but I was 99.99% certain which meaning the OP intended. Looie496 (talk) 21:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Whence came that certainty? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 23:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Voiceless alveolo-palatal sibilant

How do I say /ɕ/? --146.7.96.200 (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a sound file on that article. Are you able to load it? Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)