Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 March 5

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March 5

Rusted automobile

I know there are phrases for old rusted but still functioning automobiles. I think one of the phrases refers to the bolts. Like maybe it's called a bunch of loose bolts or something? What colorful language exists as a reference to a truly ghastly automobile? I guess rust-box is the best I can come up with. I would assume the language and literature would be awash with references. Any suggestions? Bus stop (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Rustbucket is the first that comes to mind for me. --Onorem♠Dil 00:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

From literature, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul by Douglas Adams gives us "the alleged car", and Good Omens has "Dick Turpin" (because wherever the car goes it holds up traffic). We also have an utterly terrible article that gives another term for such a car: "shitbox". Smurrayinchester 00:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Rust-bucket is the reference that was escaping my mind. The others are funny too. Thanks everyone. Bus stop (talk) 00:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Or, this side of the pond at least, there's 'old banger'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The most classic term (in the U.S. at least) is "jalopy"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Also in the US are "beater" and the possibly offensive "ghetto cruiser". You know to expect such a car when the want ad simply lists the condition as "runs". StuRat (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The article Jalopy lists a few slang terms. The word "jalopy" itself is now considered archaic, "clunker" and "rust bucket" are somewhat more frequent. It mentions "hoopty"/"hooptie", which gives even more hits than "jalopy", although I personally don't recall ever hearing/seeing that one. The term I hear most often is "beater". --Itinerant1 (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

"Bucket of bolts". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Urdu help

For the title of the document "How May We Help You?" - http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf - What is the Urdu translation indicated on the title page?

And for http://www.houstonisd.org/Multilingual/Home/Parent%20Resources/Parent%20Guidebooks/ParentGuideUrdu.pdf what is the urdu name of the document title? (Something like "Parents Guide")

It is because ur:ہیوسٹن انڈیپنڈنٹ اسکول ڈسٹرکٹ was started in Urdu, and I need to make the external link labels in the Urdu language.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know Urdu, but since the Spanish, French, and Arabic all say "how may we help you", I assume the Urdu and the others are also just straight translations. It says "ﮨم آپ کی کیسے مددکر سکتے ﮨیی". Sorry, I can't help with "parent's guide" in the second document. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:21, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It is a straight translation. Thanks for your help with the first! WhisperToMe (talk) 17:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

diesel fuel combustion

I wanted to know if spark ignition is also possible for combustion of diesel. If so what are the design changes required and what will be the variations in performance when compared with the compression ignition if spark ignition is not possible in diesel engines what could be the reson for that — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stveetil (talk • contribs) 04:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if a spark would be hot enough. The article on Glowplug or Diesel engine might help you. RudolfRed (talk) 04:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Post the question on the Science Refdesk, it would get far better attention there than here on the Language Refdesk. Roger (talk) 13:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Sortal classifiers and measure words

Can anyone think of any languages that have sortal classifiers but not measure words? (As opposed to, for example, English, which has measure words but not classifiers--except in some archaic constructions.) Thank you, 108.207.118.57 (talk) 05:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

By "measure words", do you mean "mensural numeral classifiers"? If so, it's hard for me to imagine a functional human language without these (the need to give names to quantities of uncountable nouns, and the urge to use these names in combination with numerals to measure quantities, seem essential and very hard to avoid.) Textbooks seem to concur: several sources state that "most or all" or "probably all" human languages have mensural classifiers.--Itinerant1 (talk) 07:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Restaurant: does it rhyme with ant, or with hunt, or with want, or with haunt, or with excellent/remnant?

Please indicate where you're from. Thanx. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In California, I don't think it rhymes with anything. I was trying to come up with two-word rhymes such as best hunt, but the problem is that in that phrase both syllables are stressed, whereas restaurant (which is usually a two-syllable word) is stressed only on the first syllable. --Trovatore (talk) 08:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I corrected my question according to your response. Anyways, I don't care about the stress, but rather about the kind of vowel of rant (in restaurant). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That's a schwa. --Trovatore (talk) 08:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

(and unfortunately for your correction to your question, it doesn't actually rhyme with hunt, because unstressed syllables don't rhyme with stressed ones. I think some consider the vowel in hunt to be a "stressed schwa", but to me a schwa is always unstressed, and it can be realized by the unstressed versions of several different vowels.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

So it does not rhyme with hunt, but rather with excellent (or remnant if you pronounce restaurant with two syllables only), doesn't it? Anyways, I corrected again my question, according to the new option. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't rhyme with excellent either, because to rhyme in English, the last stressed syllables of the two words must be the same except for initial consonants, and all syllables after that. That's my very rough formulation; I'm sure someone can make it more precise/accurate. Nor remnant either, because of the st/m conflict.

I wouldn't pick up from your writing, which is quite good, that you're not a native speaker, but from these comments I'm now suspecting it, am I correct? Most of English happens in the stressed syllables. The unstressed ones are generally kind of along for the ride. That's why, for example, meter in English poetry is based on a count of "feet", which generally each have one stressed syllable but may have multiple unstressed — this is quite different from, say, Italian poetry, which is often based on the eleven-syllable line, or Japanese poetry such as the haiku. --Trovatore (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As for your question about me, it seems like you haven't read the beginning of my thread above, about whether the word 13 is stressed on the first syllable (assuming you could remember my IP...). Anyways, I found it rather interesting to read what you've written about the difference between English, Italian and Japanese. I wasn't aware of it. In my native language (which you can identify by my IP) - the rhyme is always determined by the last syllable, whether stressed or not (i.e. what must be identical in rhymes - is the vowel and the consonants following it - in the last syllable). As for restaurant, again: I was more interested in identifying the kind of vowel in rant, so I was probably wrong in asking about the "rhyme" instead. BTW, I really can't find a word which (fully) rhymes with restaurant. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 09:37, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In the UK (London), to me it rhymes with want. Mikenorton (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In Australia, it varies a lot, perhaps depending on whether you're referring to McDonalds, in which case it rhymes with want, or a much more up-market establishment, when it has no n or t, and the vowel sound is more like the French, so, none of the above. HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Anyways, I was referring to those accents which pronounce the final t. The other accents you've indicated, probably pronounce it like rest a wrong, don't they? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, there's a sound the French use that I can't think of a rhyme for in English. HiLo48 (talk) 11:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you speak French? Anyways, the Frenchmen pronounce sant just as the English speakers in Canada pronounce song, and that vowel is identical to the last vowel in restaurant, assuming the final t is not pronounced. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I lived in English-speaking Canada for about a year, and I do not ever recall hearing anyone pronounce song in such a strange way. I think I might have remembered that. --Trovatore (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

So, do you claim they pronounce song as the Californians do? Let's put it this way: Can you find any GA syllable rhyming with the Canadian song? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not recall exactly how they said song, but I never noticed that it was any different from my pronunciation, [sɔːŋ]. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is a clue: They pronounce "song" as if it were spelled "sawng", but they pronounce "saw" as if it were spelled "sah"... 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, that might be true, I don't recall. Most of the differences between Toronto speech and GA are fairly subtle; I thought I had catalogued most of them but I could have missed that one. However "sawng" does not sound much like sant pronounced as though it were a French word. --Trovatore (talk) 21:36, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Which sawng are you talking about? The general American one, or the Canadian one? Again, don't forget that the Canadians (almost of them, except for those living in Regina), pronounce "saw" as if it were spelled sah.

(this phenonemon is very similar to that - of the pronunciation of the "a" in "aleph zero" - among the Hebrew speakers: Cantor pronounced the "a" in aleph-zero - as the Canadians pronounce the "a" in "saw", even though Cantor had a European accent of Hebrew - rather than a Middle-Eastern one, so he should have pronounced the "a" of "aleph-zero" - as the Americans pronounce the "a" of "saw"). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 22:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I really don't know of any difference between how Canadians and GA speakers would pronounce the nonexistent word sawng. Let me be more explicit about how it's different from French sant. If there were such a French word as sant perhaps there even is such a word, but I don't know it, it would not end in a consonant, but in a nasalized vowel. Song on the other hand, as pronounced in GA and I'm fairly sure also in Toronto, ends with a consonant, specifically a palatalized n. --Trovatore (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

As for "sans": admittedly, when I read your previous response, I was quite sure you'd mispelled the "sans" - by replacing the final "s" by a "t", but now I see it's me who made the original mistake - from which you just copied. Sorry.

As for the French accent and the English accent of Toronto: You're undoubtedly correct. By my comparing the French "sans" to the Canadian "song", I just tried to claim that the Canadians don't pronounce "song" as the Americans do, because the Canadians have an unrounded vowel - before the palatalized n, thus making their "song" - more similar to the French "sans" - than to the General American "song". However, you're definitely correct: It's not a perfect identity, because - as you indicated - one must also make a distinction, between a nasalized vowel - and a vowel followed by a palatalized n. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've only ever heard it pronounced "sawng". StuRat (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In USA, of course. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In Detroit, it rhymes with "haunt", or maybe "want", if you're being too lazy to say it properly. StuRat (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 08:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned in the other thread, I'm from Canada (southwestern Ontario specifically) and "restaurant" rhymes with both "haunt" and "want", which is interestingly not the case for StuRat even though that's just across the border! Adam Bishop (talk) 10:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I assume the Detroiters have the GA accent, so they (not like you) do make a distinction between cot and caught, even though they are just "across the border"... 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, someone from California sounds more like me than somebody from Windsor, Ontario, right across the border. The amount of time we each spend across the border is probably quite low, on average, especially now that we need a passport, limiting the chances for us to pick up each other's accents. I used to watch Canadian TV (TVO and CBC), but since the digital transition I can no longer get Canadian stations. I can still get Canadian radio stations, though, at least until that goes all digital. StuRat (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In the AmE Arlo Guthrie song, the last syllable of "restaurant" is rhymed with "want". Q: "Please indicate where you're from". A: I'm from Parts Unkown. Which apparently is a small town in central Wisconsin --Shirt58 (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The place - where you are from - does not matter, because you have said nothing about your own accent, but rather about the accent of Guthrie's, who's been born in Brooklyn NY. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm an English RP speaker, and for me it rhymes with haunt (but not want). -- Q Chris (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

BTW, do you pronounce the final t? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I haven't heard anyone in the UK not pronouncing the final 't'. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In London, "t"s are dropped all over the place. I don't pronounce the final "t" but I like to think that it's an approximation of the French pronunciation. Alansplodge (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

For me (USA South), the last syllable (when the 't' is pronounced) rhymes with "wont". Falconus^{p t c} 12:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, that is "wont" as in "Yesterday they were in the restaurant as is their wont", not "they won't be in the restaurant". Falconus^{p t c} 12:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

My big fat Collins French College Dictionary gives the IPA for the French pronunciation as ʀɛs.tɔʁɑ̃ and the English as rɛstərɔŋ, however our article Restaurant differs on both. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I already mentioned Collins (regarding the RP accent) in my previous thread, yesterday (4 May) at 21:45, and I also referred to the French pronunciation, in the current thread, today, at 11:15. See also Dbfirs' comment (about the French pronunciation), in the previous thread, yesterday, at 22:28. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

@Falconus, why didn't you say "want" (which I have already mentioned in the title of this thread)? If you don't pronounce "wont" like "won't", then: don't you pronounce it like "want"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I do not pronounce it anything like "want" or "won't". I could also have said "font", because that rhymes too for me with wont and restaurant. I pronounce "wont" similarly to the US recording here but "want" rhymes with "punt". Falconus^{p t c} 13:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I thought your "want" rhymed with "font", as it does in General American accent. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Up here in Central New York, and similar to Arlo Guthrie and most of the other media I am exposed to, restaurant, want, wont, haunt, and Vermont all rhyme. —Akrabbim^talk 13:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you make a distinction between "cot" and "caught"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Nope. Now that I think of it (and lining up with this map), my dialect more reflects being born in Vermont and living out most of my childhood in the Adirondacks, away from the CNY accent which pronounces 'cot' a little more nasally than 'caught'. —Akrabbim^talk 14:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

So, your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your want, which is identical to the want of GA accent (that does make a distinction between cot and caught). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I pronounce the last syllable of the three syllable word the same way I pronounce the term for my mother's sister, aunt. A recently taken online survey told me I had a Philadelphia accent, however those people rhyme the relative with an insect. I picked up the alternate when I lived in New England. I've also lived in the upper midwest and now live in the mid-Atlantic south, so all bets are off. --LarryMac | Talk 13:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you pronounce the vowel in "aunt" as you pronounce the vowel in "haunt"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I and most of my peers rhyme "aunt" with "ant", and make fun of anybody who rhymes it with "haunt". —Akrabbim^talk 14:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To sum up: your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your want, which is identical to the want of GA accent (that does make a distinction between cot and caught). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, 'aunt' and 'haunt' have completely different vowel sounds for me. My pronunciations seem to be in-line with those of Falconus, above. --LarryMac | Talk 14:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To sum up: your rant (in restaurant) rhymes with your font, which is identical to the font of GA accent (in which aunt and haunt rhyme, and in which want and font rhyme). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I've lived in various places around the U.S., but I grew up on Long Island (New York City suburbs), and I think that my pronunciation of restaurant is typical for that region. The last syllable, [ɑ~ʔ], rhymes with want. (The tilde in my IPA transcription is supposed to be be over the vowel, indicating a nasal vowel. I suspect that people are now going to say that they don't have a nasal vowel or glottal stop, that they distinctly pronounce the /n/ and the /t/ as consonants, but I doubt that this is true in rapid, unselfconscious speech for most Americans.) Marco polo (talk) 14:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm getting worried now. I live in the English Midlands and restaurant rhymes with "aren't". I've never heard anyone pronounce it any other way. "Aunt" also rhymes with "aren't", unless I'm trying to fit in with my Yorkshire friends and family, in which case "aunt" rhymes with "ant". "Haunt" rhymes with "gaunt" and very little else. "Font" rhymes with "want". I'm starting to think the English Midlands are totally different to everywhere else! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I think font rhymes with want in most versions of English. What is different is that, in England these vowel sounds are typically rounded ([ɒ]), whereas in most of North America they are not ([ɑ̟]). The North American vowel (with a few regional exceptions) is the vowel in father. This is the vowel that most people in the New York City area use for the last vowel in restaurant. Marco polo (talk) 20:23, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

No, really, I doubt that. I think most of General American pronounces it ['rɛst.rənt], which certainly does not rhyme with want. --Trovatore (talk) 08:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

@Trovatore: Please notice that you're the only person here who claims that - the rant of restaurant - rhymes with the rant of migrant, while user:Q Chris (being a Brit) and user:StuRat (being a Detroiter) are the only ones here who claim that the rant of restaurant rhymes with haunt, whereas user:TammyMoet (being a Brit) is the only one here who claims that the rant of restaurant rhymes with ahnt (which doesn't rhyme with font in the British accent). All of the other participants here, whether Britishers, Australians, South Africans, Canadians or Americans (incl. Arlo Guthrie), pronounce the rant of rastaurant as a rhyme of font (unless the final t is not pronounced, in which case the rant of restaurant rhymes with wrong). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

That is surprising. However not that many Americans have contributed, and as for Guthrie, he has a strong accent and it was a performance. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a General American speaker (grew up in PA, studied in CA, worked in IN and IL), and I don't think I have ever heard any General American speaker pronounce "resaurant" with a reduced vowel. I've only heard it rhymed with "want", with the vowel the same as in "father". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've counted five Americans here, whose rant (of "restaurant") rhymes with font: user:Falconus, user:Akrabbim, user:LarryMac, user:Marco Polo, and finally: user:Dominus Vobisdu (Note also that user:StuRat, being a Detroiter, pronounces the rant to rhyme with haunt, rather than with the rant of "migrant"). Note also that user:Dominus Vobisdu asserts that they studied in CA, and that they don't think they "have ever heard any General American speaker pronounce resaurant with a reduced vowel". 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But there is still a difference between both of you, even when leaving aside the rhotic issue: TammyMoet makes a distinction between the following four vowels: "ant", "haunt", "want", "aunt" (unless TammyMoet is trying to fit in with their Yorkshire friends and family); While Marco Polo - makes a distinction between the first three vowels only ("ant", "haunt", "want"), the vowel of "aunt" being either like that of "want" or like that of "ant").77.127.60.246 (talk) 20:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, and idiosyncratically, I do have the rounded [ɒ] vowel for some words, aunt being one of them, most of the time. (When I am talking to family from New York, I often pronounce aunt like ant as I did when I was a child.) This is because my pronunciation has been influenced by a couple of decades of living in the Boston area. (See Boston accent.) For some words, I seem to have picked up the rounded vowel. For some reason, want and restaurant retain their (unrounded) New York pronunciation for me. Marco polo (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you use the rounded vowel for "aunt"? I'm asking, because you're now claiming: "restaurant retains its (unrounded) New York pronunciation for me", whereas here - you had claimed (a claim you finally deleted) that: "aunt has come to rhyme with restaurant for me after many years in New England". That's why I thought you made a distinction between three vowels only: "ant", "haunt", "want". However, since you decided to take your words back (by saying now: "I do have the rounded [ɒ] vowel for some words, aunt being one of them, most of the time"), so I, too, am taking back my words about the number of vowels between which you make a distinction. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess I am a little confused, as a result of the different prevailing practices in the place where I grew up and my longtime adult home. I think I switch back and forth on that vowel for these words, probably mostly depending on whom I'm talking to. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Am I speaking now with Marco polo? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

As a South African English speaker my pronunciaion closely follows that of TammyMoet except that the only distinction between "aren't" and "aunt" is the (barely perceptible) "r" - the vowel in both words is the "father" one. Roger (talk) 08:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Is the South African accent rhotic? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Mother tongue SA English is non-rhotic, thus the barely perceptible difference between "aren't" and "aunt". Depending on their first language, some second language speakers are rhotic. (Now that I'm sitting here saying "aren't aunt aren't aunt" over and over the difference has totally disappeared, so maybe it isn't really there.) Roger (talk) 10:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as I suspected. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm from Quebec, and like Adam Bishop, I rhyme restaurant with both want and haunt. I suspect this will be the case for the vast majority of English Canadians who are not from Newfoundland. An interesting question would be whether people say restaront or restront - you'll hear me saying both. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 04:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 07:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

It's normally two syllables, "rest-ront", in South African English. Roger (talk) 08:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Additional data points: I am from the south-east of England, where I've lived all my life. I have something like a traditional 'BBC English' accent. I speak French as my second language. To me:

• 'Restaurant' rhymes with both 'want' and 'font', and I regard 'font' as the word there that's spelled most phonetically.
• 'Restaurant' is three syllables; the middle vowel is a schwa.
• Sometimes, I don't prounounce the terminal 't' of 'restaurant' if another consonant follows. In French, that would be standard.
• 'Aunt' and 'aren't' are homophones, unless I emphasise the latter, in which case the 'r' is enunciated. They rhyme with 'shan't', 'slant', and 'can't'.
• 'Ant' rhymes with 'cant'.
• 'Haunt' rhymes only with 'gaunt', as noted above.
• I pronounce 'rant' to rhyme with 'ant'; my partner, with an otherwise similar accent, pronounces it to rhyme with 'aunt'.
• 'Remnant' and 'excellent' do not rhyme. 'Remant' has a schwa for its second vowel, and thus rhymes with 'pendant' and 'brilliant'. 'Excellent' rhymes with 'dent' and 'meant'.
• 'Won't' and 'don't' rhyme with each other. 'Wont' is probably meant to rhyme with 'won't', but it's used so rarely, many people pronounce it identically to 'want' when they use it at all.
• 'Hunt' rhymes with 'punt', and none of the above.

AlexTiefling (talk) 10:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I suspect I didn't understand well your comment about Excellent. Please tell me how many syllables this word has, and how you pronounce every syllable. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 11:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I just mean that you gave 'remnant/excellent' as one option to begin with, and to me, those words have different endings to each other. As for restaurant: the first syllable is just as the word 'rest'; the second syllable (in English) is just the [schwa] sound, which might be written "uh" for rhotic speakers and "er" for non-rhotic speakers; and the third rhymes with either 'font' or 'gone', depending on whether or not the terminal 't' is pronounced. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Note that now I was asking about excellent (rather than about restaurant, for which I have already received a detailed answer). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Doh. OK, I pronounce 'excellent' Eck-sell-ent - eck as in neck, sell as the verb, ent as in dent. Primary emphasis on the first syllable, secondary emphasis on the last. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I must admit you're surprising me (I suspected you were going to, and that's why I asked you for a further clarification about "excellent"): Are you sure your pronunciation of "excellent" (in which you pronounce the last syllable to rhyme with cent) is a "traditional 'BBC English' accent" - as you've called it? I'm asking, because - as far as I'm familiar with that word (and I've heard it - maybe a billion of times, in all possible varieties), its final syllable has always had a schwa, and this is also what all the dictionaries claim, incl. the best British ones, don't they? Anyways, do you know of any other word, whose first syllable is stressed, and whose last syllable is an "ent" - which you pronounce with the "e" of "cent" - rather than with a schwa? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't pretend to have a perfect BBC accent. I may have been unduly influenced by Wayne's World, and by W S Gilbert, who rhymes 'excellent' with 'descent' in The Pirates of Penzance. Another example would be 'merriment'. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Was the first syllable of descent - in W S Gilbert's pronunciation - stressed? As for the last syllable of merriment - which I pronounce with a schwa only, did you mean that W S Gilbert pronounced it: meant, although the first syllable is stressed? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 13:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

In "Hail Poetry", from Pirates, Gilbert ends one line with 'family descent', stressing the 'ly' of 'family' unnaturally strongly, leaving 'descent' stressed normally. The following line ends 'excellent', pronounced as I have described above, to rhyme. I only meant that 'merriment' was another word with first-syllable stress and -ent ending to rhyme with 'cent'. However, there is a Gilbert example, from "My Object All Sublime", in The Mikado: "And make each prisoner pent/ Unwillingly represent/ A source of innocent merriment/ Of innocent merriment." The first syllable of 'merriment' carries the principal stress, the last the secondary, and all three lines rhyme. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for these quotations. As to descent, probably it has nothing to do with my original question about the way you pronounce excellent, because he stressed descent on the last syllable only, as you admit. As far as excellent and merriment are concerned, it seems he (primarily) stressed them on their last syllable only, as long as we consider his rhymes you presented. Anyway, maybe you, too, stress excellent on its last syllable only (or have your primary stress on the last syllable). 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you actually find and listen to the songs in question. Gilbert certainly does not stress only the final syllables of these words. In Pirates (and it occurs to me that it's not in "Hail Poetry" at all, but in the Act 2 introduction), the stress is clearly mostly on the 'ex' and somewhat on the 'ent'. Similarly in Mikado, there's a strong beat providing emphasis on the 'in' of innocent and the 'merr-' of 'merriment', with a secondary stress on '-ment' the second time round. A further example (also Gilbert): in Iolanthe, the Lord Chancellor sings 'The law is the true embodiment/ Of everything that's excellent/ And I, my Lords, embody the law.' Again, the main stresses are on the 'bod' of 'embodiment' and 'ex' of 'excellent', with secondary stress on the endings. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I accept your testimony. Anyways, this is not the common pronunciation of excellent (at least nowadays), and that's why I was so surprised when I read your original comment against the connection between remnant and excellent. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Gilbert was known to take liberties with pronunciation in order to make a song "work". For example, he managed to make "conservative" rhyme with "contrive" and "alive". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:17, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Thankxs. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 20:50, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

For a three-syllable pronunciation of "excellent" which approximates to the way I pronounce it, see the theme tune from Wayne's World! --TammyMoet (talk) 11:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you didn't provide a direct link for the tune. Anyways, would you agree with user:AlexTiefling, that "excellent rhymes with dent and meant"? 77.127.60.246 (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think I was allowed to post a YouTube link for copyright reasons here. Googling "Wayne's World theme tune" fetches it up for me. And yes, it does. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, thank you. I've just listened to it, and you're right. However, it seems the tune forces them to pronounce the lent with an open vowel, but maybe I'm wrong. 77.127.60.246 (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

'Haunt' rhymes only with 'gaunt', as noted above. - what about flaunt, jaunt, taunt and vaunt?

'Remnant', 'pendant' and 'brilliant' are not anywhere near rhymes of each other. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 12:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

They are for me. 86.176.212.232 (talk) 12:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Jack - you're right about rhymes for 'haunt'. 'Avaunt', too. And for me, the last vowel in 'remnant', 'pendant' and 'brilliant' is an unstressed a like the one in 'tap', so they all rhyme. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ditto. —Akrabbim^talk 16:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But surely the rhyme depends on more than the final unstressed syllable (or do you pronounce these words rem-NANT, pen-DANT and brill-YANT?). It's about whether -EMnant, -ENDant and -ILLyant are rhymes of each other, and for me that is surely NO. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sure, but the answer to that question is so obviously "no" that it never occurred to me that that could be what was meant. 86.177.108.83 (talk) 02:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC) (86.176.212.232 above)

Then AlexTiefling was using the word "rhyme" is a very loose sense. Just as long as I know. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

To the OP: I've noticed that you're going back and amending your own responses quite a while after making them. This may make the thread of the discussion hard to follow. You also seem to be trying to lead us into proving some point or other, with your claims about what may or may not be the 'common pronunciation' of particular words. In some cases, including mine, you've strongly suggested that you (whom I've presumably never met) may know better than I do how I pronounce things. I've got to ask: what's the point? Where are you going with all this? AlexTiefling (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello Alex, how are you?

As for your comments/questions:

1. Usually, after I submit my responses, I review them again, to make sure I haven't made mistakes - in spelling, style, and likewise (very seldom, the error I find is reflected by having to add marginal additions that are not going to change the whole idea). When I find errors, I try to fix them as soon as possible, in order to avoid edit conflicts, but I don't always succeed, so if my behavior (in fixing my own errors) has bothered you - I apologize; Next time, I'll try - to review my responses - before submitting them, rather than afterwards. Would you forgive me?

2. I don't think I know anything better than you, or than anybody else: I've only claimed that your claim about excellent - "surprised" me, but this doesn't mean that you are wrong or that I'm right: Maybe the other way around. Notice that, when I think that something is so and so, I try to be careful with my thoughts - by expressing them by: "it seems to be so and so", or "maybe it's so and so", and when I'm corrected by clear proofs or clear testimonies, I declare loud and clear: "I accept your testimony", and likewise. The only exception is, when I express my opinion about issues of what's more "common" in the world (and the like), because that's a purely "scientific" issue - which can be simply measured: e.g. with regard to the more common pronunciation of excellent, in which case I don't say "it seems to be so and so", but rather "it is so and so": How do I know whether it's really so and so? By opening dictionaries, listening to people, counting how many people pronounce excellent this way or that way, and likewise, as every scientist should do. However, even in such "scientific" issues, in which I say "it is so and so" (rather than: "it seems to be so and so"), you shouldn't conclude that I'm sure I'm right: Be sure, that if you provide any strong proof or any strong testimony against my findings, I won't hesitate to accept the proof/testimony, or to admit I've been wrong.

3. My only purpose - in this thread - is to know how the word restaurant is pronounced by the native English speakers. That said, I afford to express my feelings (as a surprise, and the like), or my thought, just by the way, when I come across surprising arguments which I can claim something about.

77.127.60.246 (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)