Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 19

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October 19

How to say 'or' in colloquial language?

If you want to use the exclusive 'or' and/or the inclusive 'or' but still sound informal, how do you do it? OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Either/or is not "formal"--and you just used the inclusive or in your question. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The point here is that we constantly use inclusive and exclusives 'or's, but without specifying them explicitly, although that's sometimes necessary. 'and/or' sounds stupid when speaking. OsmanRF34 (talk) 11:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Not among us edycated folk it don't. In any case, in spoken English it's usually clear from the context. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you mean an inclusive or, say "A or B or both"; if you mean an exclusive or, say "either A or B but not both". I'm not sure how colloquial that is, but at least it's clear. Looie496 (talk) 01:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, that's what I wanted.

Spanish help

How do you say "Each child had over 10 teeth drilled and given silver caps" (caps on teeth) in Spanish? I'm doing work on es:Small Smiles Dental Centers to discuss the history of the clinics when they were operated by the DeRose family. I wrote the section about the DeRose family at Small Smiles Dental Centers on here, and am now translating that section into Spanish WhisperToMe (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say A cada niño les taladraron más de 10 dientes, dándoles tapas de plata. But I am getting tapas from google translate, so I am not sure if that is the proper noun to use here. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll wait around and hear about the Spanish term for caps - You could say coronas since they are stainless steel crowns.WhisperToMe (talk) 18:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "tapas" is not the term for them, and AFAIK it is indeed "coronas" (see here and here on es.wiki) — Frankie (talk) 19:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, use coronas dentales instead of tapas, see http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(prostodoncia) μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

And don't just say dándoles coronas de plata without the dentales or people will be imagining the kids each got a silver tiara.μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! The last one... "The board also reported Edward and Michael DeRose and Mueller to two national databases that serve as clearinghouses for information on actions filed against dentists. The DeRoses and Mueller filed a complaint asking the board to have their names removed." - I'm not sure how to do these two WhisperToMe (talk) 19:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my Spanish is coming out half French right now. What board? I need the broader context--please provide a direct link to the section or source, not just the relevant page. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The Colorado Board of Dental Examiners WhisperToMe (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Who on their lunchbreak eat tapas and drink Coronas. And then clean their teeth thoroughly. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Llol! μηδείς (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That was a good one, Jack! It's welcome too, since after doing research on the topic of "Small Smiles" I felt really depressedWhisperToMe (talk) 00:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I forgot.. Here's the direct link to the relevant source on HighBeam (cited as "vogrindisc" on the English article: Vogrin, Cary Leider. "move to clear reputations, Three file complaint to remove names from disciplinary database." The Colorado Springs Gazette. May 20, 2004. Retrieved on October 3, 2012. Available at HighBeam Research.): - If you don't have a Highbeam account, I'll send you an e-mail WhisperToMe (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I can see you got it already on es.wiki. Just a few fixes: "El Colorado State Dental Board también reportó a Edward DeRose, Michael DeRose y Mueller a dos bases de datos nacionales que sirven como centros de intercambio de información sobre acciones legales contra dentistas. Los DeRose y Mueller presentaron una denuncia pidiendo a la junta que eliminara sus nombres de las bases de datos." — Frankie (talk) 17:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Frankie! Please make whatever other fixes you feel need to be made :) WhisperToMe (talk) 19:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help

In Karate Kid there is a character named Liang. I uploaded a section of a screenshot to my Flickr -http://www.flickr.com/photos/30646153@N03/8103165243/in/photostream What are the Chinese characters? WhisperToMe (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That definitely says more than just Liang, because it's three characters, which means three syllables. The first one looks like 梁, which is the surname Liáng. The middle one looks like 子 (zǐ) and is thus presumably the first syllable of the person's given name. Somebody else will have to help you with the third. Angr (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Isn't the third one 浩? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like it. If so, then I guess Liáng's given name is Zǐhào. Angr (talk) 01:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

an English word to describe this thing?

This is not a cauldron though it has two rings. What could be another word?--117.253.198.143 (talk) 17:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Brazier? --Jayron3217:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It's more like a casserole that goes on top of a brazier. I don't see why you couldn't just call it an uruli. You can also compare it in shape to a shallow krater, although those were used for serving wine. One might also search Category:Ancient Greek pot shapes and seehttp://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/11-4/Scutella.pdf for a patina which is where we get our word pan from.μηδείς (talk) 19:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like somebody lit a fire under a birdbath. Trying to catch and boil squab in a single step ? :-) StuRat (talk) 20:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Does this even make sense?

OK. I am just making up this sentence, but theoretically, would it make sense if I were to use the verb "save" as a noun? In real life, I never really heard it being spoken this way, but still, I am wondering if they are still understandable or too florid/poetic.

Example 1: I have saved $10.00 in my piggy bank.

Example 2: My piggy bank, which stores $10.00, is my salvation when I become needy.

Example 3: My piggy bank, which stores $10.00, would become my saviour when I become needy.

Yes, I know that I am personifying an inanimate object in the third example. I think the next example would be better:

Example A: The firefighter saved the little girl's life by rescuing her from the burning house.

Example B: The firefighter rewarded the little girl salvation from the fire in the house.

Example C: The firefighter was the saviour of the little girl in the burning house.

People do use salvation and saviour as nouns, right? The root word is save. All I am doing is changing the suffixes.140.254.121.34 (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

"Save" is a verb, not a noun (except in colloquial expressions, as when, for example, a goalkeeper "makes a save"). In the piggy bank context the usual noun would be "savings", and in the second example, "rescuer". The sentence about "rewarded the little girl salvation" makes no sense at all. The other sentences make logical sense, but "saviour" and "salvation" are not normally used in that way.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It would really help people to answer these overly complex questions if you would at least number and letter your examples. μηδείς(talk) 20:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Then, I can use the Spanish term then? El salvador means saviour. Salvar means to save. So, salva- means to save. And -tionmeans the state of being or the action of doing something. Add salva- and -tion together, and it would supposedly mean the action of saving someone/something or the status of being saved. When I was thinking of "rewarded the little girl salvation", I was thinking of "the status of being saved", so that it would read "rewarded the little girl with the status of being saved", thereby treating her salvation as a status. The action of saving someone or something would deserve another example: The firefighter's salvation of the little girl proves that he/she is a man/woman of merit. 140.254.121.34 (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Example B doesn't make sense. The others all do, but they're not the most natural way of expressing the ideas. It's important to note that in English, the meaning of a word is dependent on its derivation - words with virtually identical roots can have quite divergent meanings if they arrive in English by different roots.

'Salvation' in English usually has religious connotations - although a metaphorical usage is fine. 'Savings' on the other hand is entirely secular. I think (now I consider it) that 'salvation' is connected to the Latin for 'health', salus - like 'salud' in Spanish. Conversely, there's a German word for 'salvation', 'Heil', which is linked to the English 'health' - and it should be easy to see that 'heil' meaning 'hail, greetings' is like the English 'hail', and also parallels the Spanish 'salud' for 'cheers'.

'Savings' on the other hand has its roots only in English - it's a later development from the long-established English verb 'save'.AlexTiefling (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Why does Example B not make sense? Do you think the following makes sense: "The man rewarded the girl salvation from the fire"? If neither that makes sense to you, do you think the following makes sense: "The man rewarded the girl a cake for her hard work"? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense, but it's not grammatical. You reward somebody with something, but you award somebody something. But you don't award salvation, nor reward somebody with salvation. You might grant them salvation. Angr (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The usage is grammatical, you are disputing whether it is idiomatic. (I think idiomatic usages could be found, the point is really theological whether one thinks good works can be rewarded with salvation; pre-sola fide Catholicism or that God awards salvation to those whom he wishes before they are born regardless of acts; Calvin.)

It might be helpful to point out that save has (at least) two very different meanings. In the sense of "rescue from danger or mistreatment" the nouns saviour and salvation may be used, though they are most often used in a religious context. In the senses of "keep and amass money" and "pay less than one might have", these nouns are not used, and would be liable to be misunderstood if you tried to. --ColinFine(talk) 22:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Doubt <-> Question

I've noticed on a number of occasions that some of our customers used the word doubt in an unusual way. They often say "I have a doubt about...", or "my doubt is that...". It seems that they are using doubt where I, in my BrEng, would use question. So, my doubt is this: Is there a form of English which has doubt and question as cognates (for what it's worth, I suspect the answer might be InEng), and is this an influence from another language or maybe a re-emergence of a former usage? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This, or something like it, is actually a very old usage. I'm not going to try to pin down the details, but up until at least the 1700s "doubt" was often used to mean "fear" or "suspect". Wiktionary shows that meaning, marking it as archaic. Looie496 (talk) 20:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say they are using it to mean "uncertainty". I suspect that this manner of speaking might be more common in people coming from cultures where modesty is highly valued. That is, you having an uncertainty implies that this is some shortfall on your part, while "I have a question" does not, and "You haven't explained X" downright puts the onus on the other person. StuRat (talk) 20:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I see this all the time in InEng-- as soon as I saw the section heading I knew what this question was going to be about. However, I don't think that doubt and question are synonyms, even for the speakers in question. You never "ask a doubt". In my observation, if a speaker is asking about something for which they have no prior knowledge, such as someone's name, it is still a "question". But if the speaker is asking about something they have some context for, like if they are trying to clarify some piece of text they have read, it is a "doubt". Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, when you say you have a doubt/uncertainty, this implies that you would like to ask a question, but doesn't say so explicitly.StuRat (talk) 00:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

You say "in an unusual way", but to me there is nothing at all unusual about "I have a doubt about..." or "my doubt is that...". However, in neither case is "doubt" exactly synonymous with "question". I am a BrE speaker too. 86.160.220.225 (talk) 21:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes people say "I have a doubt about ... " or similar words, and that's done as an invitation for others to respond. It is not a question in a formal sense, but it may as well be.

It's like newsreaders who cut to a reporter in the field; they'll start talking to them without asking a question, either explicitly or by voice tone: "Hello, Tracey. The Freedom Commandos have launched yet another attack". If I were Tracey out there in the battlefield, I'd say "Oh really, Jim? Do go on. I thought I was telling the story here". But what Tracey actually does is treat it as a question like "Tell us more about this attack by the Freedom Commandoes". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:06, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I suspect 86.160 has not encountered the form of question Cucumber Mike is talking about, but like Orange Suede Sofa I have many times seen it from speakers of Indian English. See http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question for discussion.--ColinFine (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This usage doesn't strike me as wholly foreign to American speech. I am quite certain that at least twice I have had professors or employers give me syllabi or policy statements with the suggestion that if we have any doubts we should approach them during office hours. I took this to mean "uncertainties/questions", not crises of faith. The terminology used herehttp://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question strikes me as perfectly familiar. And I have never had an Indian boss or teacher. μηδείς (talk) 00:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

If someone said, "Let me ask you a doubt" (instead of "let me ask you a question") that would seem baffling. But not so with: "True, without doubt" (for "True, without question"); or "I have no doubt that . . . " (instead of "I have no question that . . .). Alanscottwalker(talk) 01:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Orange Suede Sofa, as my experience working with Indians is that it's in common usage. But I don't recall any of them saying "Let me ask you a doubt", it's typically, "I have a doubt." It's kind of quirky way of saying, "I have a question." Maybe they're taught that "questioning" someone is less polite than "doubting", although in American English it would be the reverse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

However, EO indicates that "doubt" has been a synonym for "question" for a long time.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 04:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What does EO stand for, please, Bugs? μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

EtymOnline.com, apparently —Tamfang (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Bugs, but I don't see where it says that doubt means question at the link you posted. Can you give a quote? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

""from L. dubitare "to doubt, question, hesitate, waver in opinion" (related to dubius "uncertain;" see dubious)..."" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't that refer to the verb ("I doubt what you say is true" = "I question whether what you say is true")? I'm not sure that I've yet seen a source that gives an etymology for doubt the noun being the same as question the noun, as in I have a doubt vs I have a question. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

So, I take it the formulations in the dock is are, "I have a doubt, [followed by question]" (eg. I have a doubt, is his real name Abu?), or is it "I have a doubt, [followed by statement that the speaker intends as a question but which the hearer takes as a statement] (eg. "I have a doubt his real name is Abu." But the reader thinks the speaker is saying, "I doubt his real name is Abu." So, the speaker is expecting an answer and the hearer does not know whether to answer, or ask, "Why do you doubt?") It seems some of the miscommunication maybe tied to whether asking questions is more polite than making statements, or that questioning is less polite (importuning) but that 'putting the doubt' in the speaker's mind seems less aggressive. On the other side, the hearer does not know if they are responding to rhetoric or to question. Alanscottwalker(talk) 11:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

My range of experience with that Indian expression is rather narrow - I've only ever heard it in reference to project specifications. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Medeis's link http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2429/can-doubt-sometimes-mean-question gives this interpretation of its use in Indian English: doubts in their mind about their understanding. I think that when an Indian (or possibly someone else) says "I have a doubt" they mean "I have a doubt in my mind as to whether I understand this." Duoduoduo (talk) 19:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

That would make total sense. It's a deferential way of asking about something that doesn't make sense to them. A face-saving approach to a situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

See #would usage in english below for an example of what this question is about. --ColinFine (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks

According to Battle of Greece, this is a quote from Winston Churchill. But what is the name of the literary trick he is employing by reversing "heroes" and "Greeks"? I am sure I've seen other examples of the same technique in Churchillian rhetoric, and in puns, although right now I can't think of any. Can anyone help fill me in? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 22:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Antimetabole - another example being "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country".Mikenorton (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Or the Archie Bunker version of the Golden Rule: "Do unto others, before others can do unto you". :-) StuRat (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Chiasmus. Matt Deres (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Never mind; Mikenorton's answer is better. Matt Deres (talk) 22:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Top answers thanks. Chiasmus is interesting, but definitely antimetabole was nail-on-head. There is an A-B-B-A pattern to it, so presumably most antimetaboles are chiasma? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It appears that antimetabole is a particular, more restricted, type of chiasmus [2]. Mikenorton (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

That link is particularly interesting - antithesis can sometimes be chiastic and the comparison with antimetabole is helpful. "It would seem convenient to use the term chiasmus for the criss-cross order and correspondence in meaning or syntax of two pairs of words, whether or not involving word repetition, and restrict antimetabole to the narrower meaning of a pair of words repeated (usually with some morphological change) in reverse order". But another description is more confusing for me - apparently antimetabole can be "a large epanados". Can someone explain? Would Churchill's Greek example be an epanados too? ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 00:16, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I find this link [3] more helpful or more confusing - it may help answer your question. Mikenorton (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

At least it clears one thing up - the spelling epanodos seems to give better google results than epanados did!ManyQuestionsFewAnswers (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)