Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 June 16

Language desk
< June 15	<< May | June | Jul >>	June 17 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 16

bloody

I was surprised to hear Martha Reeves say in an interview "We just thought it was a bloody shame...". I am British and therefore very familiar with this use of "bloody", but it sounded very strange to hear it from an American, even more so a black American woman. The article bloody says "In the US the term is usually used when the intention is to mimic an Englishman" but that would not really fit the context (which was an interview in a film about Marvin Gaye, with no obvious connection to Englishness). Any other reason why she might have used this word, and did she mean it as a relatively mild profanity per British usage? 86.128.1.7 (talk) 01:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"Usually" is a key word there. If an American is in the habit of peppering his or her speech with Britishisms, they might start to pop up unconsciously. Maybe she has a bunch of English friends. Regardless, I'm sure the meaning was the same. --BDD (talk) 03:18, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

From the article you linked: "In January 2012, Martha held court at London's Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club with a sold out six-show stand that drew celebrity friends like Phil Collins and Boy George. [.......] In September 2012 Martha performed at the Freedom Festival, Kingston-upon-Hull, England." My guess would be that one of these (probably the former) is the source of the expression. Dbfirs 06:25, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

That sort of thing is easy for an American to pick up if they've been living around Brits for a while. Although I live in Germany, I go to a Church of England church on Sundays and work with several Brits during the week, so my speech is more peppered with Britishisms than it was when I lived in the States. I haven't picked up "bloody", but I have picked "I couldn't be arsed" (which I always pronounced [ɑrst], never [æst]) because we don't have a sufficiently vulgar equivalent in American English. Angr (talk) 13:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Angr is right. Americans pick up British words quite quickly (and vice-versa), and start using them when around Brits. When I was in Japan, this was happening a lot. However, in response to Angr's comment about "I can't be arsed" (which is my version), I was once with an American teacher in a school, and there was some evaluation we had to go through, routine stuff, and I'd said "I can't be arsed to do this", and he said emphatically "I can't even be BOTHERED!", because apparently he'd misunderstood what I'd said, and thought I'd said "I can't be asked" (with a southern British accent, even though I'm from the North). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I think I picked it up primarily from a co-worker from Middlesbrough. She pronounced it [ɑːst], but I do know enough about Northern English accents to know that if she'd meant asked she would have said [as(k)t]. (Also, I've seen it written down, probably mostly here at WP.) Angr (talk) 19:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

• It's usage is becoming more common. I had never heard the term in elementary school. I first learnt it from a friend in 7th grade whose parents were Scottish. I use it not too rarely now as a minor emphatic. I hear others using it occasionally. There's no sense of trying to mimic a Brit unless the accent's also done. "Spot on" is another phrase I hear all the time as a nativized Americanism.μηδείς (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

A variation on it is 'bleeding'. We use both interchangeably here in the UK. Always makes me smile when the BBC says 'There was a bloody massacre in [wherever]' and when songs have the lyrics 'my bleeding heart'. :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:10, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

There's a good blog about British words crossing the Atlantic. Here is the item on "bloody". Interestingly the blogger hadn't noticed bloody being used in the US. Thincat (talk) 20:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

We've had a similar conversation before. 'Bloody' is used far more in Australia than in the UK, and the Australian tourism advert "Where the bloody hell are you?" illustrates the point. It was banned in the UK, for containing 'profanity' (even though we in the UK use the term all the time). Another one that was banned was this, which is another word we use all the time. I don't know why the TV censors have to bow down to little old ladies who don't understand language change and development. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:31, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

In a similar vein, see this Australian ad about bloody idiots. The bloody idiot is also well known to everyone in Victoria, Australia, from our Transport Accident Commission's anti-drink driving ads. Here is an early example from an ongoing series. HiLo48 (talk) 05:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Synthetic drugs

I have begun to hear and read the above term used by journalists and politicians to apparently refer to an evil new set of anti-social drugs, which should all be made illegal for the benefit of society (according to the users of the term). See here for an example. To me, as a once-upon-a-time chemistry student, the term has always meant any drug made in a laboratory, including all the good ones. Is this a new usage? What does it really mean? (And how can I now describe good drugs made in laboratories?) HiLo48 (talk) 01:53, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I would guess that it means artificial recreational drugs. The unspoken implication is that they are somehow more dangerous than "natural" recreational drugs such as cannabis. Scientifically, I doubt if there is much difference between taking poisons "as natural intended" as opposed to "in their pure form". Bluap (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that most often it's more or less a synonym for designer drugs... AnonMoos (talk) 07:22, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

deck in spanish

how do you say deck in spanish? the type of deck that is a a flat raised wooden area attached to the backside of a house made of wood? i know its not cubierta which is only a deck on a sea vessel, is there not a proper term? is the portuguese form deque or spanglish deckue at all in common use?108.212.70.237 (talk) 02:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like you may have already checked Google Translate. How about piso? (more translations). --BDD (talk) 03:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd use cubierta del patio, which is what GT gives. The word piso would be okay, but it is pretty generic, and means floor as opposed to ceiling, or floor as in level of a building. μηδείς (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

no way in hell is it cubierta del patio which means backyard-roof or backyard-cover or backyard-shipdeck. Piso could work and its normal in spanish for multi-sense words to be isolated without qualifiers that are understood contextually, however i finally found out i ask my cousin in south america and she said the term balcón is most widely used to refer to what we call a deck as they are considered 1st floor balconies, although he said those without connecting sliding doors or that have stairs are also referred to as plataforma.108.212.70.237 (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

WEll, I'd trust your cousin, since she is more likely to be a real person than google translate. But I am also sure that out of the blue, piso would be an oddly generic word to use. Instead of trusting google, whenever I have referred to what my parents have, it is a patio with a piso and a techo. μηδείς (talk) 00:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Exactly that is what I meant, if you are on a deck you can refer to it as a piso but out of the blue no one knows, a lot of the time unfortunately english has an exact word but spanish has a generic one which is situationally-dependent for anyone to understand unless it gets riddled with adjectives or other qualifiers. also my other cousin (the first's cousons) who lived in Australia before moving to Chile said terraza or terraza de madera in addition to balcón and that parral is sometimes used as well although that would often be a deck with an arbor or veranda over it, she told me basically since the architecture is different the terms are never going to be perfect but that terraza was the closest by far, déck or déckue apparently are also in existence.108.212.70.237 (talk) 05:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think both the geographical and the specific physical contexts are going to matter. My parents (I live in an apartment) have an attached patio with a wooden floor at ground-floor level over a concrete bed and with a roof just below the house's second story. Attached to that is a small deck on the same level as the first story above ground. Separately they are called the deck and patio. Together they are called the deck, since there is a wooden covering over the entire structure. But there neighbors have an above-ground pool with a wooden walkway around it, which one accesses by walking up some steps from their ground floor. This deck is wide enough to allow walking access to half the pool, and high enough (about six feet) off the ground that they use it for storage. I could easily see four different terms being used to refer to all of these entities, only the roof of my parent's patio being exempt from being called a deck. Ironically, etymology on line shows that (thatched) roof is the original meaning. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd like a picture to see what you actually mean. I venture terraza, porche (if it is covered) or tarima. -- Error (talk) 00:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Name translation

I've been told that my name when translated to Chinese (I don't know whether Cantonese or mandarin) is 克里尔熊耐寒. What is it translated back into English? Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

google translate gives collier bear hardy. μηδείς (talk) 16:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Foreign names are usually translated into Chinese phonetically--by taking syllables that have similar sounds to the syllables of the original name (subject to some constraints, like the syllable structure of Mandarin--more limited than English--and the inventory of sounds--they don't have some of the sounds that English has). So all I can really do is transcribe the sounds (there is no point in trying to translate the "meaning" of these characters; they were chosen for the sounds they represent). kè lǐ ěr xióng nài hán (IPA: [kɤ li ɑɻ ɕjɔŋ naɪ xan]). You can check out the articles on Mandarin phonology and Hanyu Pinyin for more about these sounds. rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:04, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I gave them my last name followed by a transliteration of my first name, in that order. So, I accept that kè lǐ ěr is the syllabic equivalent of my last name, however xióng nài hán should actually have a meaning. Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

See Transcription into Chinese characters... AnonMoos (talk) 07:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify, 'transliteration' is probably not the right word. I studied the etymology of my name, and found the modern English equivalent. That is what was actually translated. For example, if I wanted to translate Schumacher, I'd tell them my name was "Shoemaker", or "Maker of shoes", or "Cobbler". So, I want to know if their translation of what I gave them is faithful or not. Plasmic Physics (talk) 07:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The meaning of the characters is:熊 is a bear, 耐 is to endure or to resist, and 寒 is the cold. Hope this helps. Oda Mari (talk) 08:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. So that means I should drop the last character to make 熊耐, which approximates Bernard? Plasmic Physics (talk) 08:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I only understand characters, not Chinese reading/sound. Looking at the zh:WP, the en name is 伯纳德 like zh:萧伯纳 and zh:伯纳德·赫尔曼. Oda Mari (talk) 09:35, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm just noting that 'cold' incorrectly specifies the type of 'endurance', whereas I require no specification, cold or otherwise. So, based on what you said, if I want to translate 'bear-enduring' I have to drop the character that represents 'cold'. Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The actual meaning itself would be 'Bear that is resistant to cold and works in a coal mine.' (Is your surname 'Collier'?) Kè lǐ ěr xióng nàihán is the actual pronunciation. You can actually check this on Google Translate. There is an option to give you the transliteration. The thing is, as it's a name, and names are usually transliterated and not translated, the meaning is lost, and you just have to glue it together in whichever way you think would be appropriate if you want to have an actual translation. Hope this helps. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

This is why I specifically said that there is no point in trying to translate meaning. As I said above, English names are translated phonetically, using characters chosen to imitate the sound, not the meaning. For example, Barack Obama is referred to as 奥巴马 (ou ba ma), which means...absolutely nothing. (There are small exceptions, where some famous people have nicknames that aren't phonetic transliterations--Britney Spears is often referred to as 小甜甜 xiao tiantian "little sweetie". And sometimes people try to choose characters that have an interesting meaning while still conforming to the sounds--Dayron Robles's name was translated as 罗伯斯 luo bo si, but then a lot of Chinese people started disliking him because he beat Liu Xiang's world record, and started referring to him as 萝卜丝, which is still pronounced luo bo si but means "turnip strips". The point is, sound comes before meaning.) Therefore, like I said, there is no point saying the translation "should" have a meaning--that's just not how it's done.

That being said, it looks like the translator did try to accomodate your request and translate the meaning of your name rather than the sound. According to our page Bernard, that name originally meant "bear" + "hardy". 熊 means bear, and 耐寒 actually means hardy (I believe this word originally did refer to cold more particularly, and was used to talk about plants that can do well in cold weather; but actually it can also be used to mean "hardy" in a general sense, for instance, you can use it to describe camels [there's an example in the link provided], and people's personalities). So it's pretty much a word-for-word translation of the name's presumed "meaning" (that being said, I don't consider most English names to really have "meaning"--they may have had meaning a long time ago, but if you have to look the meaning up then it's clearly not part of your mental representation of the name). So that is a translation of the meaning. But as I explained above, if you wanted a real translation of your name (i.e., one that Chinese people would use), it would be a phonetic one, like the ones that Oda Mari gave some links to above. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I do see myself as 'hardy', just not the physical way. So, I think that an etymologically correct name is better than a phonetic one. Accordingly, no change should then be made to the name I submitted then? Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

No, my last name is just Kriel, which refers to town in NW Germany. Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake. In any case, if you were to go to China, say as a student, like I did, they would give you a two or three syllabic name, which may reflect some of your name, or it may not. My Chinese name in Tianjin was 高林 ('gaolin') which approximates only my first name (Colin) and means 'Tall Forest' (nothing to do with doves, as 'Colin' is supposed to mean), and my Cantonese name was 高俊 ('gaojun' in Mandarin) which just means 'Tall and Handsome' - nothing like my real name, but more like my qualities :) My Japanese name is 影虎 ('kagetora') which means 'Shadow Tiger' - absolutely nothing to do with my name whatsoever, but reflects the fact that I work through the night. Two or three syllabic names are the norm, basically. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:18, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I guess Bó nà dé will do in casual circumstances. Plasmic Physics (talk) 22:46, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

It's amusing though, to an Anglophone, my last name would sound like 'curlier'. Plasmic Physics (talk) 22:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is because Mandarin does not have the same 'o' that we have in English. It is replaced by the Mandarin 'e', which is half way between 'o' and 'e', but because of the fact that consonant clusters cannot be present in Mandarin, 'e' is sometimes used as a helper. This is why 'Kriel' is written and pronounced like this in Mandarin. This is why I mistook your name, and guessed it as 'Collier' (which is far more common). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

KageTora raises a good point: that for a name someone is actually going to use in China, people will often get a name that looks like a Chinese name (i.e., it's 2-3 syllables, the first is a Chinese surname, and the rest are characters commonly used in given names). To me, 伯纳德 looks more like a translation than a possible Chinese name--伯 exists as a surname but I don't know how common it is (it seems to have been more common, there are several famous Bos in ancient times, but not so many now, although there are other Bo characters used as surnames too), plus I think 纳 is pretty much mostly used in phonetic translations of names, I don't know many actual Chinese peoples' names that have it (Chinese given names tend to come from a smaller set of characters that have meanings people like). A good Chinese name for a foreigner often somewhat mimics the sound of the original name, and looks like a Chinese name; KageTora's 高林 gaolin from Colin is a great example.

On the other hand, for just translating a foreign name (i.e., not giving someone a name that they themselves will use among Chinese people, but just 'officially' translating a name, e.g. translating famous peoples' names for a newspaper article), they will generally focus just on the sound, and not worry about trying to make the name look Chinese. Hence names like 诺姆·乔姆斯基 (Noam Chomsky), which are very obviously not Chinese. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:31, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

With the name 'Bernard' I would suggest changing the first character from 'Bo' to 'Ba'. It's a lot closer to 'Ber'. Your name in Japanese characters (katakana) would be クリール・バーナード (kuriiru baanaado). 'Bonered' is not the name you really want. :)KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

[EDIT]Actually, a native Chinese colleague of mine said 伯纳德 would be right. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:31, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I once knew a Charles Belov who when speaking Chinese used the name Bái Lì-Hàn; you can see a rough Bel there, but he said also that bái means 'white' (translating Slavic bel) and one of the other elements, I forget which, means 'male' to translate Charles. Clever, I thought. —Tamfang (talk) 02:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

the meaning of Alsuhail or Suhail

The List of Arabic Star Names has the translation of all the traditional names, but in this case it's listed as untranslatable. Surely some approximation must be possible?

Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 12:15, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

The name is applied to several bright southern stars. The original meaning may have been "bright", "brilliant", which is one connotation of the modern Arabic word. (See also Suhail.) The western understanding of the name has long been a muddle; according to Allen's Star Names, one early German philologist (Buttmann) suggested that it was related to al-Sahl (the plain), probably due to the low altitude of the stars. -- Elphion (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"Suhail’s name comes from the Arabic phrase Al Suhail al Wazn, translated partially as “The Suhail of the Weight.” The meaning of this name is unclear. The word suhail had several meanings in ancient Arabic. These included “the plain” as well as the adjectives beautiful, glorious, and brilliant. Also, several other stars in the area were occasionally known as Suhail, including the brilliant star Canopus in the neighboring constellation Carina." This is a quotation from Encarta Reference Library 2003. I may add that since Suhail is rarely seen in Northern Islamic territories, there is a saying in Persian which likens to Suhail someone whom you rarely meet. --Omidinist (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Strange - looking at Suhail it feels like the word is almost untranslatable even for Arabic speakers... Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)