Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 14

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March 14

Working language(s) of the Vatican?

While all that things are happening I just wonder what is the real working language with which all the cardinals from different countries speak with each other? Is it Italian? English? Latin? What obligatory languages are supposed to be known by every cardinal? Is Italian the must-know language for all higher Vatican officials? Yes, I know that the official languages of the Vatican are Latin and Italian but I want to clear the issue in its practical aspects.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

The main language - the official language of the Vatican City State - is Italian. The Holy See uses Latin as its official language. Our Vatican City article offers further language information (note 11): " In accordance with paragraph 2 of the Legge sulle fonti del diritto of 7 June 1929, all laws and regulations of the state are published in the Italian-language Supplemento per le leggi e disposizioni dello Stato della Città del Vaticano attached to the Acta Apostolicae Sedis. The text of the first seven items published in that supplement is given here. While the state itself uses only Italian, many other languages are used by institutions situated within the state, such as the Holy See, the Pontifical Swiss Guard, and the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. The Holy See uses Latin as an official language and French as a diplomatic language; in addition, its Secretariat of State uses English, German, Italian, Polish, Portuguese and Spanish. The Swiss Guard, in which commands on parade are given in German, also uses French and Italian in all its official ceremonies. The semi-official Holy See newspaper L'Osservatore Romano uses English, French, German, Italian, Malayalam, Polish, Portuguese and Spanish. Vatican Radio uses 40 languages, including Albanian, Amharic, Arabic, Armenian, Byelorussian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Croatian, Czech, Esperanto, English, Filipino, French, German, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Malayalam, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Rumanian, Russian, Slovak, Slovenian, Somali, Spanish, Swahili, Tamil, Tigrigna, Ukrainian, and Vietnamese." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

In the pre-popening speculation, not speaking Italian was seen as a mark against various otherwise popable candidates. Unfortunately I can think of no easy way to find these remarks--the best I found were some blog comments mentioning Cardnial Dolan of NY doesn't speak Italian. μηδείς (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Любослов Езыки -- The language of papal decrees and official pronouncements is Latin, but a lot of the lower-level administrative work is carried out in Italian, and it seems it would be very difficult to navigate the internal politics of the Vatican administrative agencies and gain firm control over the work of the Curia without a practical working knowledge of Italian. AnonMoos (talk) 23:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Very few people in the Vatican have a deep understanding of Latin to the point that they would be fluently able to converse in it, and most have no more than a rudimentary familiarity that doesn't extend beyond being able to read simple prayers. During the last papal election, I remember reading that only one cardinal, from Latvia or Estonia if I remember correctly, was able to converse in Latin. A significant minority have a passive reading familiarity with the language to the point where they would be able to make sense of a Papal bull or other official document.

Even Benedict, when composing his resignation speech (which he delivered in Latin), had to rely on an official latinist to polish up his draft. Many, if not most, of the Bishops present in the audience didn't understand it. Latin isn't a working language in the Vatican, but a language of record. The reference for any dispute about the meaning of any Vatican document is the Latin translation of the (usually) Italian original. The translation is carried out by professional Vatican latinists.

Even 50 years ago, when Latin was still the liturgical language, I doubt that many cardinals were able to converse in Latin. Just watch some Youtube videos of Cardinal Krol officiating at the funeral of John F. Kennedy for an example of a cadinal whose knowledge of Latin was at the schoolboy level or worse. His pronunciation is painfully hilarious. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:49, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's one reference on the language policy inside the Vatican: Inside the Vatican: The Politics and Organization of the Catholic Church, By Thomas J. Reese. p. 95. Reese, too, mentions the importance of Italian (and of being good at languages in general) for a potential candidate for papacy. -- Vmenkov (talk) 01:26, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Origin of the surname Carkeet

Can anyone identify the presumably SE Asian language origin of the last name 'Carkeet'? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a particular reason for thinking it's an Asian name? I ask because I found a reference to Carkeets in Falmouth, Cornwall in 1761 - just wondering if I'm on the wrong track. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I said presumably because the one person I am familiar with the name, the keyboardist for AWOLNation, looks Burmese or thereabouts. But I see there is a very anglo- looking writer with this name, first name David. Could be a case like Bains, which is common in India, or maybe I am totally off. If I knew the answer or had any luck searching I wouldn't have posted here. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course there are all sorts of reasons why an Asian-looking person could have a European last name. They could be adopted, like Philipp Rösler. They could have gotten their Asian looks from the opposite side of the family than their last name, like Lou Diamond Phillips or Sean Lennon. They could have changed their name, like Meg Tilly. Or they could just look Asian without being Asian, like Björk Guðmundsdóttir. Angr (talk) 21:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Is someone saying that Carkeet is a European name and is not a SE Asian name? If it is European, it's quite unusual in orthography, and still begs for explanation. According to his myspace page Kenny Carkeet's "Asian". See google. μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I would like to say that Carkeet IS most definitely a European name. I draw your attention to Cornish Surnames which says: "CARKEET, KARKEET poss: (ker)car-keth, fort of the serf (ker sometimes mutates to car)" Apparently there were 47 Cornish people with the surname in the 1881 Census. A somewhat different etymology is suggested by Patronymica Cornu-Britannica: or, The Etymology of Cornish Surnames By Richard Stephen Charnock, London 1870 which suggests "Rocky village" "Stone hedge" or "Dog rock". Note that the study of the Cornish language was in its infancy then, so the modern interpretation is likely to be more accurate. There is a place called Carkeel not far from my ancestral home in Saltash; the size of our article accurately reflecting the size of the hamlet. "Kernow bys vickan!" Alansplodge (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I am no more denying that Carkeet is a European surname than I am denying that Wang (surname), Long (surname), Lee (surname), and Bains (surname) are European surnames. But the gentleman in question calls himself "gookaluke" at Myspace, and identifies as Asian. The name Carkeet is consistent with, for example, the Lao language and the Romanization of Lao. I am hoping someone with competence in SE Asian languages will have some comment, or, better, source. That being said, thanks, it is interesting to learn the name is found in Cornish. I was presuming it was Welsh. μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Lao doesn't have r in syllable final position. Nor do Vietnamese, Cantonese, Mandarin or Thai. I'm not sure about Khmer. That leaves thousands of East Asian languages and dialects, but given that we know Carkeet is a Cornish name, isn't the most likely explanation that the musician got the name from a father of Anglo American origin? Maybe he is Asian on his mother's side, or maybe he was adopted? Itsmejudith (talk) 07:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Our article on the Khmer language indicates it doesn't, but the English name for said language does, ironically. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

In non-rhotic dialects of English, 'r' is used to signify a lengthening of the previous vowel, and was (and still is) very often used in amateur romanization of languages with different scripts, especially in languages which do not have a syllabic-final 'r', as there would be no confusion. Take, for example, the common Korean surname 'Park'. There is no 'r' in the Korean version (bizarrely, it's not even a long vowel in Korean, either). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:16, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

"Wherever there is a hole in the earth, you will find a Cornishman at the bottom."[1] See also Cornish diaspora. Alansplodge (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The name Cakeet is apparently found in Java. μηδείς (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason why it is so important for you to identify this Carkeet's ancestry?

Opposite of economic materialism

Help me find the opposite of economic materialism. I'm stuck. I was thinking of economic immaterialism, but that probably doesn't even make any sense. 75.185.79.52 (talk) 21:32, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Maybe communism, in its ideal form, in which no one owns anything. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:09, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

But Marxism is both an economic and a materialist theory. We need better guidance from the OP. μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

It would help to know what you are talking about by economic materialism. Do you have a source, article, or example of what you are referring to? You might also want to look at contrary (logic) since an exact opposite of a complex term is unlikely. μηδείς (talk) 22:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I watching this Youtube video, which talks about the high price of materialism.75.185.79.52 (talk) 01:23, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Bras and city parks? Hilarious! I have never seen a better parody. μηδείς (talk) 01:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Utilitarianism. Efficient economic functionalism?165.212.189.187 (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Relevant articles: Commodification, happiness economics, outcome-based education, Reification (Marxism), human capital, cognitive-cultural economy, knowledge economy, gift economy, moral economy, virtual economy, post-materialism, Asabiyyah, asceticism, Blue Ocean Strategy, social business, bequest motive, mutualism (economic theory), precarity, micro-revenue, calculation in kind, structuralist economics, evolutionary economics, normative economics, socioeconomics, Turnpike theory, niche market, circular economy, attention economy and ecological economics. ~AH1 ^(discuss!) 21:03, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Spanish pronunciation of Bergoglio

Our article on Pope Francis says in its Note b that the Spanish pronunciation of his last name is [βerˈɣoɣljo]. I find that second [ɣ] a little hard to believe; it seems like too much of a spelling pronunciation, especially in a country with so many Italian immigrants. I would expect it to be pronounced either as if it were spelled Bergollo (thus [βerˈɣoʃo] in Rioplatense Spanish) or as if it were spelled Bergolio (thus [βerˈɣoljo]). Can anyone confirm or deny? Has anyone reading this thread heard his last name pronounced by a native speaker of Argentinian Spanish? Angr (talk) 22:32, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that's got to be someone's spelling pronunciation. I'd tag it until it's well-supported. μηδείς (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

FWIW this was in fact stated as the case (Argentines pronounce the second g) on NPR this morning. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Is English Wikipedia interested in how Spanish speakers pronounce an Italian name? How do the French pronounce It? The Swiss? Itsmejudith (talk) 23:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

No, not generally. But in a specific case like this, we would not just assume he pronounced his surname the way his Italian parents would have or the way Italians generally do. Maybe he started out that way and later changed because all his Argentine friends said it differently. Who knows? I know various first generation Australians who say their own names differently from the way they were taught by their parents. Cultural pressure is strong. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's an example youtube[2] of an obviously native Spanish speaker pronouncing it "Bergolyo", which is what I would expect the Italian pronunciation to be. No surprise. That link will probably enable finding other Spanish-language links, if anyone is interested. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, in case anyone's interested: in Argentina the pronunciation of Italian surnames is anything but consistent: sometimes we (try to) go by the Italian rules, sometimes we don't. Thus, you'll hear Chiesa with /k/ or /tʃ/ and Giano with /x/ or /dʒ/, even from the same speaker. In the case of -gl, though, pronouncing it "the Italian way" would be perceived as a hypercorrection. In short, it's [βeɾˈɣoɣljo].Here's an example (3:14, 4:36 and 5:19). They all speak Rioplatense Sp, although there are some traces of the NE dialect in the woman's speech. Anyhow, what I really came to ask is why the initial B's been rendered as [β] rather than [b] when there's a pausa before it. Could some of you explain, please? Cheers --CocoLacoste talk 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The pronunciation given in the article is of “... Mario Bergoglio”, hence it does not have a pause before the B, but a vowel.—Emil J. 16:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

didn't Commons have a project to get famous people to pronounce their own names? Can't someone just nip down to the Vatican with a microphone? Rmhermen (talk) 00:43, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems to be "Bergolyo" on Vatican Radio (here, English and here, Spanish, at about 02:20). --Rallette (talk) 07:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

On CBS News this evening, a childhood friend of the new Pope said "Bergolyo". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:13, 15 March 2013 (UTC)