Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 December 21

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December 21

Is there a term of endearment in English that means polite, well-mannered, and obedient?

Is there a term of endearment in English that means polite, well-mannered, and obedient when those traits are expected from children? Historical terms would be nice; contemporary terms would be preferable. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 01:50, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Butterfly? Bus stop (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Now that is really sweet and interesting and surprising too (to me). Where have you heard/read this? ---Sluzzelin talk 02:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

No, there is no source for that, known to me. It just seems like a likely term (of endearment). Bus stop (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe here. Contact Basemetal here 02:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that many terms of endearment for children are either expressions of love or food. Sweetie. Honey. Darling. Dear. Dearie. Apparently, terms of endearment are usually not terms about virtue. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 03:43, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Angel? ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 04:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

"(Now) that's/there's a good boy/girl" is encouragement used condescendingly to obedient animals, children and slaves. I have a hard time seeing a sincere term of endearment that means obedient. I suggest you find the word closest to what you mean and enter "xxxxx synonym" at google. One of the freedictionary type sites will have hypertext answers you can search among. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I only asked the question, because in Chinese, there is this term, 乖, which can be used to describe a well-mannered, obedient child or as a term of endearment. In the Chinese nursery rhyme, XiaoTuzi GuaiGuai (sometimes translated as Little Bunny Darling) uses it as a term of endearment. Culturally, parents expect obedience from their children. Hence, the term is a loving term of endearment. The thing with translations is that oftentimes the subtle nuances are lost. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 04:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of that's even closely relevant is the deprecative term in Spanish, maleducada, which means what it looks like but is best translated in English as "brat" or "rude". I'll withdraw and leave it to an English-Chinese bilingual to comment. μηδείς (talk) 05:12, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm racking my brain on this one, and have come up with a number of closes matches, but with regard to what you seem to be looking for (a noun that implies someone matching all three of the traits cited), there's no one term which explictly matches that meaning, that I can recall anyway. I think with regard to modern English speakers, you're likely to find that Medeis' perspective predominates and that deep servility is often referenced as a negative feature. And indeed, for this perspective we have no shortage of terms condemning somebody who is perceived as embodying those traits to an excessive degree: Lick-spittle, toady, brown-noser, ect.

On the other hand, there are a great many adjectives which are roughly synonymous with that combination of traits that reflect a more positive assessment; "dutiful", in particular, comes to mind, while "deferential", "acquiescent", "attentive", "humble" and "demure" are certainly more neutral and can be used to describe someone who is accommodating and overtly respectful (either in general or with regard to certain persons or contexts) in a manner that doesn't imply disdain for the submissiveness. As for terms of endearment specifically, there is a term not altogether rare in British English, "pet" -- though its use is not at all exclusive to docile persons. There does indeed seem to be a class of terms of endearment of this sort which involve an implication of differing levels of authority in their literal meaning but which are often used in a more neutral fashion and do not necessarily imply any significant degree of difference in status between the parties (consider not just "pet" but also "babe", "baby", "my lads", "hey kids!", ect.)

One niche modern context worth mentioning is that in "D/S" relationships the very combination of traits you reference (overtly respectful and gracious obedience) is often regarded as a virtue in a submissive partner and some terms and phrases which refer to a person of lower status (and which normally have a very disdainful connotation in general parlance) are sometimes used in this context in a very warm, complimentary, or endearing fashion -- as with "slave" and the word "submissive" itself. This use is highly marked, however -- particular to specific subcultures and contexts.Snow talk 06:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

More likely "girl" or "boy" as terms of BDSM endearment... AnonMoos (talk) 07:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Which would be immensely condescending in a broader social context, under almost any circumstances. Snow talk 09:44, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. The condescending tone of the use of "boy" in Great Expectations characterizes Estella's personality. Estella is of low birth but is raised by an upper-class woman, Ms. Havisham. Meanwhile, Pip achieves large sums of money from Magwitch, because of his initial generosity to Magwitch. Apparently, even in the 19th century, the use of the term "boy" is condescending, treating the target as an inferior, rather than an expression of love. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I must add that Curious George (TV Series) may be relevant here. The Man in the Yellow Hat always likes to say "Be a good little monkey" before leaving George unattended. I never perceived the remark as condescending in any way, because George always grunted "Okay!". The Man in the Yellow Hat was like a loving parent, and George was like a child who wants to be obedient but often gets into hilarious trouble! 71.79.234.132 (talk) 18:29, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

"Sweetie" and "Angel" are the only terms of endearment I can think of or hear used often that would have implications of a well-behaved child. I think it's interesting to note that parents often use such names when trying to console a child that is upset or having a tantrum. "Please stop throwing things, sweetie." as opposed to the firmer "Stop throwing things, David.". Perhaps a subconcious effort to remind yourself that you really do love your kids and that it's wrong to strangle them?146.235.130.20 (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

In French, if I recall correctly, a well behaved child is described as très sage, literally "very wise". "Grand-mère a écrit que tu avais été très sage" equals "Grandma writes that you've been a very good girl" [1]. Alansplodge (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Hence the French command, Sois sage! μηδείς (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Vaut mieux être une saucisse qu'un boudin Contact Basemetal here 22:21, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Wait, does saucisse have some sort of weird connotation of which I am not aware, like vejotes fritas? μηδείς (talk) 06:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

What are vejotes? Weird I don't know. It is a less common variant of andouille, i.e. someone who's not too bright. Charcuterie is often a source of colorful slang, but also other food specialties: une nouille (a noodle) is again an idiot. To say that il a autant de cervelle qu'un plat de nouilles is to say you are not overly impressed by his acumen. As to boudin you must know it means an unattractive woman, a bit like a dog, but more appropriate since dogs are actually cute. But what are vejotes? Contact Basemetal here 21:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Darnit. That was a misspelling, it should have been vejota(s). The closest English would be "hag": fried hags. Spanish vieja with a stress-attracting deprecative suffix -ota which prevents the e > ie stem-vowel mutation. I was trying to figure out what saucisse would connote that would relate it to boudin.. μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Using suggestions given in Snow's answer from above, you can turn any appropriate adjective into a term (or, more precisely, phrase) of endearment by using "my xxxx one", e.g. "my dutiful one". I have found this very useful and it is specifically my go-to choice when making quick translations of such terms from East and Southeast Asian languages.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 23:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Angel is a really good answer to this question!! (One that I didn't think of immediately reading the question.) It really is exactly what was asked. It has good contemporary usage and is widespread, and is undeniably 'a term of endearment in English that means polite, well-mannered, and obedient when those traits are expected from children'. We can know it literally means this because it can be used to express exactly these words if said to another parent about their own child (by the way, I must say, your child is an angel) - not just as a term of endearment. Case closed I think :)

Read this for example - http://www.empoweringparents.com/angel-child-or-devil-child-does-your-childs-behavior-change-from-school-to-home.php

“ Have you ever heard someone talk about how well-behaved your child is and thought in disbelief, “Excuse me? Are you talking about my kid?” While we usually enjoy hearing good things about our children, being told that your child is an angel by others can be confusing and frustrating when she’s out of control at home. ”

212.96.61.236 (talk) 04:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

It's worse when you immediately disprove the stranger's comment. My mother never talks about how long she spent in labor when she wishes to guilt me. She recalls the time we were shopping (I must have been about 3) and a woman told my mother, what a nice child you have. To which I responded, "Stupid lady!" μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

When I was a child, my mom's friends would just comment that I was very "guai". My mom actually agreed, since I acted the same way publicly and privately. Interestingly, the word angel has a religious connotation. Guai has no such religious connotation. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 05:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Can someone link the poster's name to that post that contains the quote and the website above my own IP address? That certainly ain't me! 71.79.234.132 (talk) 05:48, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I've moved the signature down slightly to the right place (That IP was me BTW.) 91.120.14.30 (talk) 10:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Bundesigel?

I was yesterday at a pub quiz and one of the teams was named "Bundesigel". Doesn't this name mean something like "the hedgehog of the federation" in German? Or is there any other meaning? JIP | Talk 15:41, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

It might be a pun on Bundessiegel, Germany's national seal. To triple the pun: the Siegel's animal is an Adler/eagle (see for example Coat of arms of Germany) which in English sounds almost exactly like "Igel" does in German. (Bundesadler >> Bundeseagle >> Bundesigel << Bundessiegel)---Sluzzelin talk 16:55, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

And your translation would be correct. So would "federal hedgehog". Maybe it's not even about the pun, but about being a cute (if prickly) little creature as opposed to a proud and pretentious predator. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:25, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

As an afterthought: Federal Hedgehog might actually make sense in the context of Switzerland. The country's tendency to curl up in a spiky ball when facing danger (WW II, Cold War, sometimes only pretending to curl up) has been called "hedgehog mentality" or "hedgehog syndrome". See also the article on National Redoubt (Réduit), though it only mentions the animal in connection with the concrete hedgehog building built for the Expo64 in Lausanne (here's a pic). I've seen the nation pictured as a hedgehog in political map caricatures of Europe too, though I couldn't find an example right now. (It is kind of hedgehog-shaped, but I've also seen it as a pig, and a slug works too). Anyway, depending where the team was from, they might not even have been referring to Germany! ---Sluzzelin talk 12:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Japanese abbreviations

Sometimes, if there isn’t enough space in a map, the name of a city is shortened to its first letter (Berlin > B.). How does it work in Japanese? How do you abbreviate a place name like ウラジオストク (Vladivostok)? Our article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_abbreviated_and_contracted_words wasn’t useful. --151.41.190.219 (talk) 21:28, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Can you give an example of a map using abbreviations like that? I have never seen one in my life. 'B' could mean 'Bavaria' or 'Bonn' for all I know. In any case, just using a smaller font would suffice. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 02:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Corrct me if I'm wrng but it seems to me the whle map thng is a distract. You want to know if the Jap use abbrev lke we do, and if th do how th do it? Is tht rght? Contact Basemetal here 02:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Generally, if a map is too small, only bigger places are labeled instead of using abbreviations. I don't know Japanese but if they use Kanji in maps it would be less space-consuming. In the Japanese article, it says 海参崴 is the traditional name and it seems that ウラジオストク is the phonetic transcription, which is preferred. In Chinese it's the other way around. The phonetic transcription would be 拉迪沃斯托克, but 海参崴 is preferred. --2.245.254.124 (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

FYI, sometimes maps will abbreviate, but not just with a first letter. It is rarely used for cities, but more often for countries or subdivisions. For example, I have seen maps of Europe with nations marked Sw., And., Bel., Mon., S.M., etc.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

British accents identification

What kind of accents are Adam Buxton and his daughter using in this video[2], respectively? WinterWall (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Fairly generic Southern English English, consistent with their London origin. A bit too refined to be unambiguously classed as Estuary English, a bit too - unpolished? - for RP. Not a formal Cockney accent, of course. Tevildo (talk) 22:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I thought. I wondered whether I could detect a vestige of a Welsh accent, but I'm not sure that I can. Adam has probably picked up a range of pronunciations from his acting, and incorporated traces into his everyday accent. Dbfirs 22:29, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, you two. Much appreciated.

What about his daughter? To my untrained ears, her accent sounds "fancier" than her father's. WinterWall (talk) 22:37, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, just to clarify, you're talking about Adam, right? (As opposed to his daughter) WinterWall (talk) 22:34, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the daughter mis-pronounces the odd word, but that's just because she's five. It's obvious that she doesn't attend a state school in inner London because she hasn't picked up any trace of Cockney. It's usual in the UK for children to adjust their accent towards the norm at the school they attend. Dbfirs 22:40, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Adam sounds pretty nondescript southern English to me, with no hint of any regional accent, but perhaps ever-so-slightly upper Middle Class ("what were you saying?") (not that there are any classes in Britain, of course). His daughter sounds slightly Welsh when she says "baaaadie", but not much at all after that). She sounds a lot like Ramona Marquez did when she first appeared in Outnumbered, in fact, and just as precocious. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:08, 21 December 2014 (UTC)