Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 February 26

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February 26

Chinese names for foreign toponyms

In general, how does Chinese come up with names for places in foreign countries? With humor I note that Google Translate treats zh:鮑靈格林 (俄亥俄州), the Chinese article on Bowling Green, Ohio, as if it were a place where one goes bowling. Is this often done for places with common-word names? And what about places with names that aren't dictionary terms, e.g. is "俄亥俄州" just a set of characters that are pronounced like "Ohio", or did they somehow translate it? Nyttend (talk) 00:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Bowling Green, Ohio is named after a bowling green = so how is this funny? Rmhermen (talk) 00:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Amusing in the sense that we often don't translate foreign names in any way, e.g. the city on the Baltic was changed from Königsberg in German to Konigsberg in English, and Russian Калининград is English Kaliningrad: neither the old name nor the new one is translated. Also amusing in the sense that English toponyms often don't get translated by some other languages; all of the interwiki links at Bowling Green, Ohio go to articles named "Bowling Green" in Latin-script languages, and the Cyrillic ones transliterate the name. For example, we have fr:Bowling Green (Ohio), even though the sporting location is a fr:Boulingrin (jardin). Nyttend (talk) 01:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If you want translated placenames, look at the interwikis along the side of Great Salt Lake -- the great majority (other than Danish, Dutch, and Japanese) appear to be translations... AnonMoos (talk) 01:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are Chinese exonyms and Transcription into Chinese characters. With names which are long and/or contain lots of consonants, the results can be ugly... AnonMoos (talk) 00:56, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Wow, an exonyms article that isn't a mere list of illustrations of the obvious fact that each language necessarily adapts foreign names to its own phonology. That makes two that I know of, the other being Arabic exonyms. —Tamfang (talk) 02:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

"鮑靈格林" doesn't mean bowling green at all. This is simply a case of Google Translate being dead wrong. You don't need need to understand Chinese to verify this, just Google "鮑靈" and you'll see that the results are about various towns named Bowling Green. "鮑靈格林" is just a straightforward orthographic transcription of "Bowling Green". Bowling, the sport, is transcribed as "保齡球".Dncsky (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

How is it an orthographic transcription, when the Chinese have nothing remotely close to an alphabet? 鲍灵格林 is a phonetic transcription. If you say it, it sounds vaguely like "Bowling Green". Google Translate isn't wrong; it correctly translated the Chinese name to the corresponding English name for that town.

Incidentally, it's amusing to note that 保齡球 itself is a phonetic borrowing from English. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

How? Read the article; it has an paragraph or two on orthographic translation in non-alphabetic languages. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:11, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The name "Twart" as pronounced in England

I saw mention of someone in England whose last name was "Twart." I understand that the r is typically not pronounced in a "Long John Silver" or USA way in England but that would imply that "Twart" and "twat" were pronounced about the same. In England would the non-rhotic pronunciation of "Twart" be distinguishable from "twat" in some way, perhaps as sounding more like "twaht" or "twaat?" In other words, when the "r" is not pronounced rhotically is the "a" given a longer or different sound, so that "arse" sounds different from "aahs" or "os?" Edison (talk) 04:04, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

In "standard" English as spoken in England, "twat" is pronounced in two different ways, either to rhyme with "cat" (click red loudspeaker icon at [1]) or to rhyme with "hot" ([2]). The name "Twart", if pronounced in the expected way, would rhyme with "cart" ([3]), which is quite a different vowel sound. 86.176.209.54 (talk) 04:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

It depends on who's doing the expecting. I'd have thought it rhymed with wart, caught, bought, port. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Australia has some unique perspectives on vowel sounds compared to other national varieties of English, however. --Jayron32 10:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I (English English) would also have read that as rhyming with "wart" - /twɔːt/. Bazza (talk) 13:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, my mistake, I agree. 86.176.209.54 (talk) 14:15, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

@ Jayron: Nyah, nyah.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 16:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Thwart is a very close rhyme.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:52, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this thread moving twart a resolution. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If too many tweets make a twat, would too many twats make a twart? 86.176.209.54 (talk) 22:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

It's possible that Jack's pronunciation is correct (to rhyme with "wart"), as I once knew somebody with the surname Twort, which would have the same sound. Non-British readers should be aware that twat is not a word to be used in polite company. Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

We're way ahead of you on that one. μηδείς (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Good. One wouldn't wan't an H.M. Bateman moment, would one? The man who said "twat" at the managing director's cocktail party... Alansplodge (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I think Medeis's point is that the word sounds substantially worse in AmE than I gather it does right of the pond. Here, the anatomical meaning is pretty much the only meaning. --Trovatore (talk) 02:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I see. Thanks, Alansplodge (talk) 16:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, The Man who failed to settle with the Inland Revenue.... μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The basis for this question is a long-standing lack of understanding of what articulation standard British English speakers use when they say a word which Americans would speak rhotically. It sounds to me much as if the Brit says "aaahs" for "arse," but the above suggests they say and hear another soound after the initial a sound. In "Aaahs," the jaw would remain at the same width and the tongue would remain low until the vocal apparatus snaps to the s sound. Perhaps the Brit speaker makes a movement of the jaw slightly ore closed and the tongue slightly upward during the nonrhotic "r," but with the tongue not moving quote far enough upward for the rhotic r spoken by Americans and movie pirates. Edison (talk) 02:03, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

No, I think we Standard Southern British speakers just write your "aaah" sound as "ar". On that basis "Twart" rhymes with "ought". Alansplodge (talk) 02:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Isn't the difference one of compensatory length? Aren't r-coloured vowels like the first in farther longer than ones like the first in father? I don't believe I can recall ever being confused by such a pair. In fact, I so automatically interpret the sound as an allophone of /r/ that I often have to pay very close attention to tell which characters in Downton Abbey, for instance, are actually rhotic, and which aren't. The only time the difference is really salient to me is when an /r/ is inserted between a sequence of two vowels acrost a word break, like "Amelia-r-always declines a cup of tea." That always sounds oddly country bumpkinish. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

No, "farther" and "father" are homophones hereabouts, as are "taught" and "tort". As regards "Amelia always", in my London accent, I think (after saying it in my head several times, trying to avoid having the other occupants of the office thinking that I've gone mad), I would use a slight glottal stop, however better brought-up RP speakers would have a distinct break without a hint of an "r". Alansplodge (talk) 14:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Chinese explanation

Could you please explain what this sentence means? What's the pun? Thanks (From The Deer and the Cauldron, I checked the English translation but this section was missing in the translation) F (talk) 09:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC):

韋小寶命那教士下去領賞，吩咐大營的師爺將信封入封套，在封套上用中國文字寫上蘇菲亞公主的名字。那師爺磨得濃墨，蘸得飽筆，第一行寫道：“大清國撫遠大將軍鹿鼎公韋奉書”，第二行寫道：“鄂羅斯國攝政女王蘇飛霞固倫長公主殿下”。待聽得韋小寶笑道：“這個羅剎公主跟我是有一手的，幾年不見，不知她怎樣了？”那師爺在封套上又寫上兩行字：“夫和戎狄，國之福也。如樂之和，無所不諧，請與子樂之。”心想這是《左傳》中的話，只可惜羅剎乃戎狄之邦，未必能懂得中華上國的經傳，其中雙關之意，更不必解，俏眉眼做給瞎子看，難免有“明珠暗投”之嘆了。

The lines the secretary adds to the letter to Sophia Alekseyevna are quoting from Zuo Zhuan, specifically the book on Duke Xiang of Lu (鲁襄公)—and he sighs at the waste of quoting Chinese classical literature to the uncultured Russians. Looking at this translation, I think it is a shortened version of this: "It was you who taught me to harmonize the Rong and the Di, so as to secure the adherence of the great States. In the space of 8 years, I have nine times assembled the States, and a harmony has prevailed among them like that of music. I beg to share the pleasure of these things with you." In Zuo Zhuan, the context of the quote is gifts of musicians and musical instruments to Wei Jiang by Duke Dao of Jin. The play on words is probably the reference to "harmony" referring to uniting the Rong and Di tribes, but in the context of the musical gift. --Canley (talk) 11:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Translate Star Lord to Chinese?

Could I ask you beautiful people of great grace and knowledge to translate "Star Lord" for me to chinese? I do not feel comfortable with google translate in this. Yesterday I decided to change my signature/nickname of 10 years from DanielDemaret to Star Lord, after having seen this trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIJDg5dSfnw. "Star" in the sense of a distant celestial body, rather than "movie star". Lord, as in "Time Lord". The main criteria? Fun and Colorful :) Star Lord (talk) 14:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

星王？ (Xing Wang)KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:57, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, KägeTorä! I knew I could rely on you! It is from you that I was inspired to add a chinese nick. Would you mind a followup-question? You have dots on your vowels on your nickname. Are these only decorative? Because every time I read it, I read "KaegeTorae", since that i how it would be pronounced in Swedish. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 16:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ha! Thank you for the complement. Yes, the umlauts are purely decorative. If you look at it with the 'a' underneath together as a smiley, it could be a stylised version of a look of surprise and amazement. I also use it to emphasise the fact that 'Kage' is not pronounced like 'Cage', as some of my online gaming friends tend to think. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

KR in icelandic names

On skimming the credits for Thor: The Dark World, part of which was filmed in Iceland, I noticed two crew members whose names, although evidently Icelandic, didn't fit fully with the scheme described in the Icelandic name article. They have "Kr." between their forename and their patronymic. I can find a few more examples on Facebook and IMDb (e.g. Ragnar Kr. Gudmundsson), but it's evidently rare (and rather hard to Google for). It doesn't seem to be a middle name in itself, or just an initial, but an abbreviation for something. I've seen it used on both a man's and a woman's name. What does it mean? 87.114.145.236 (talk) 23:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I read in an Icelandic dictionary I had to hand that "Kr." is an abbreviation for "Kristur" meaning "Christ", as in Jesus Christ. So I wonder if it is something to do with religion? --Canley (talk) 02:44, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

After a bit of searching, my best two guesses: it's an abbreviation of an alternative family name (usage mentioned at Icelandic name) like Kristensen... or it's a playful/fanatic reference [4] to Iceland's athletic club, which also has a wiki page. El duderino ^(abides) 08:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, “Knattspyrnufélag Reykjavíkur” seems to be a very useful phrase to utter in situations of dire emergency. :o) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is redolent of Wm., Geo., Chas. etc, which we used to see quite a lot in good ol' English. I did some searching on the basis of it being short for Kristiansson or something similar, but found nothing to confirm my theory. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

So, what is 'Of.' short for, Mr. Oz? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:48, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Von, as in Johann von Australien. Duhhh...149.160.175.36 (talk) 17:24, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

No, it's the first element of an unhyphenated double-barrelled surname. Long story short: Great-great-grandfather was the product of furtive lubricious doings between an Irish sea captain and a fair Moroccan maid. They were not disposed to giving him the captain's surname MacGillicuddy-O'Blarney-McHennessy-O'Fennessy of the Reeks of that Ilk, so he came up with O'Fez in honour of the mother's motherland, but with a Hibernian flourish. Linguistic (not to mention other forms of) corruption ensued; the apostrophe got dropped and it became Ofoz. The later Australian branch of the clan became somewhat gentrified and the name assumed its current form; options such as d'Oz, van Oz, von Oz, Ozovich, were all considered, but finally it was felt that that if "of Aragon", "of Cleves", "of Teck" etc were all good enough for foreign anglophonous queens, an "of .." form was good enough for us. The only difference being that Anne of Cleves, being your actual royalty, is sorted under A for Anne, but my maiden aunt Anne of Oz, for example, goes under O for of Oz. So that was that, and here we are today. As I say, that's the short version. The long version is only very slightly longer, but in the interests of brevity I've suppressed it for the time being. For those who find this story outlandish, all I can ask is: Would I lie to you? Do my wild erratic fancies offend the sensibilities of the simpering cognoscenti? Nay, a thousand times neigh. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:05, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

And of course, "Jack" refers to a male donkey.  ;)  ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)  "bray?"

I assumed it would be Kristjan, and there are apparently people named Ragnar Kristjan Gudmundsson, although none of them seem to be this guy. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

No chance it's Karl? μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC)