Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 February 28

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February 28

She's a different person to me

Can one use the phrase "different to/from" by adding a noun in between? Example: "The idea of reviewers and accountants being different persons to the man who handles the money is great." Or is the word "different" suitable at all? --Pxos (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a noun can go in between. However, in the example given, it would probably be better to say separate people rather than different persons. Also, the example in the heading could be interpreted as your perception of changes that she has made to herself after some period of time. Different from is generally better than different to, though both are very common. Different than is also sometimes used, and is very very poor grammar.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:47, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

"She is a different person to me" would mean, to me, "As far as I am concerned, she is a different person" (e.g. from before, or she treats me differently from the way she treats others). Here I would use 'from'. As for the sentence in the OP's question, I don't understand it. The man who handles the money thinks that reviewers and accountants are different people? Reviewers and accountants are different from the man who handles the money? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The example doesn't suggest anything at all about what the money handler thinks. The statement asserts that it is a great idea that the reviewers and accountants don't handle the money.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

In American English, you can't say "X is different to Y". That construction occurs only in British and perhaps some other Commonwealth varieties of English. In American English, it is always "X is different from Y". Apparently, this second construction also works in British English. Marco polo (talk) 02:40, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually KageTora gives the example above where you can say "she is different to me". But his example leaves out the British variant that you mention. μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Always, Marco polo? The American variant I've heard a great deal of is "X is different than Y". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:49, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Really? Awful. Just awful. Are you hearing this from educated Americans?--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:55, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I cannot vouch for their education, but the creators of Different Than You and Nice Is Different Than Good seem to qualify. "Different than" is sufficiently well attested to have excited over 13 million hits. Admittedly, some of them are querying whether it's correct terminology or not (kudos to them), but I'm sure most are just using it because they've been taught it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:05, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

"Different than" is acceptable in colloquial American speech, but considered inferior in writing. There is a usage of "different [...] than" that is on the path to acceptance even in more formal contexts, when what follows "than" is a clause with a predicate. Example: "I did it a different way than he did". You obviously can't replace than in that sentence by either from or to; you'd have to reword it completely. --Trovatore (talk) 05:09, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

No, you just need to add "what" Different from what he did. μηδείς (talk) 16:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

"*I did it a different way from what he did." Yuck. --Trovatore (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Medeis knows that jokes should be clearly marked as such. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

But I wasn't joking. (Next IP 54 will start an anonymous ANI on this subject, dialog at 11.) There will obviously be different cases. Language is like that. Trovatore seems to want to say "I did it differently from the way he did it". There would also be "what I did was different from what he did" (i.e., not, "What I did was different than he did." (Yuck!) Or even, "I did it differently from how he did it", where how is simply the instrumental case of what. I am not sure how the barbarism "different than" means people don't need to know what they are saying any more. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

As I say, you can reword. But if you want to structure the sentence to use a conjunction rather than a preposition, then it has to be than. I think "I did it differently than he did it" is acceptable in all varieties and registers. It's only when you change differently to different that an issue arises, and as I say, the sentence I gave is not fully accepted, but things are moving that direction. --Trovatore (talk) 21:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

This appears to be a case of an question which has several anecdotal answers, many of which are linguistically incorrect. Perhaps this is a scenario where editors should refrain from giving "advice" lest it may be misconstrued as being "accurate"; it's abundantly obvious that much of the "advice" isn't helpful, editors need to bite the bullet and admit there's no right answer. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I was wrong when I said American English always has "different from". I meant it never has "different to". Of course "different than" is common in colloquial American English, though "different than" is not considered "correct" in writing or formal contexts by those who pay attention to and care about such things. Marco polo (talk) 22:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

No, Trovatore, you said you have to "reword it completely". That's false. A simple replacement usually works. You obviously do not have to "reword it completely" unless you pick and chose convenient examples. In most cases you can say "different from what" (That's different from what I said) or "different from how" (That's different from how I did it) rather than different than. But I will gladly wait for IP54's judgment on this. μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

"Completely" is a judgment call, I guess. If you change a dependent clause to a noun phrase, that's rewording "completely" in the sense I meant. --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

See above. No right answer. Just a bunch of people claiming to believe what they say is correct. Time to hat this and move on. Shouldn't be too long. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Time for you to go find a different hobby than complaining about such matters. --Trovatore (talk) 22:28, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Time for you to realise when an RD becomes a chat board. Do something about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The Rambling Man has altered the natural flow of this discussion. Let me clarify, because the examples might have been bad. Another example: "Apples, oranges and kiwis are different fruits from bananas. Dogs and cats are different kind of mammals to bears." Stylistic issues aside, is this acceptable or not? --Pxos (talk) 23:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

It is not high-quality standard written English, anywhere. I believe it is colloquially acceptable in Commonwealth countries (perhaps, other than Canada). --Trovatore (talk) 23:37, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

So the answer to the original question is: No, you cannot put a noun after the word "different". I gather the sentence "apples and oranges are different from bananas" is standard English. Dogs and cats are different and they are different from birds, but they cannot be different animals from birds? --Pxos (talk) 23:42, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, no, sorry, not what I meant. The first sentence with "different fruits" is fine. (Well, at least grammatically fine — I'm not saying it's ideally worded.) It's the "different to" that's not standard written English. --Trovatore (talk) 23:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

So if I were to write a book where the main character resembles my humble person, could I then say to in an interview that although the protagonist and I share many things, he is a different person from me. --Pxos (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes. --Trovatore (talk) 23:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Pxos, it might be helpful to look at the fact that the original construction is X differs from Z. That's why it's correct to say What happened differs from (is different from) what I expected. The different than and different to constructions are clumsy modern innovations. No sane person would say, "What happened differs than/to what I expected." The different than innovation results from people being unable to deal with the "from what" construction due to the influence of "what from".

There's an implied comparison. So people want to say "this is what that is different than" in the way they say "this is what that is bigger than." But comparisons require comparatives, and bigger is a comparative, but different is an absolute. μηδείς (talk) 04:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's the nub of it. Of course, bigger and different both connote some sort of difference (the former a specific type, the latter non-specific), and that's doubtless why people say "different than". To me, it's the same kind of "logical" misuse as "If you had have come earlier, we wouldn't be in this mess". We say "should have" and "could have" and "would have", so why not "had have"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree 100% with your wider point, but the proper construction is, Had you come earlier (or, If you had come earlier .... μηδείς (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, duh! Gimme some credit, pls. My "why not" question was me putting words into the minds of those who make this dreadful mistake, not any kind of justification for it. I did label it a misuse. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:37, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I understood, and wasn't correcting you, just making sure the proper form was out there for the readers. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Your use of the word "but" was injudicious, then. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's the reason Judy and I finally had to break up. μηδείς (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)