Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 January 25

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

January 25

Is the Miao language taught in China?

Do the Miao minority children learn their Miao languages in schools in China? Is it taught along with Mandarin Chinese? Please provide me with a website link. 173.32.117.240 (talk) 01:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find a good link, The only sources I own, Hmong–Mien language history, Martha Ratliff, and The Languages of China, S. Robert Ramsey don't address the issue--the second book would be considered dated, as it was published in 1989. There are implications on unreliable sources that Chinese language policy follows the Soviet policy, which would mean only lower education in the native non-Han minority language. Just be aware that the Miao people are also known as the Hmong people and their dialects are not necessarily mutually intelligible. We are likely to have others here with closer knowledge of current Chinese policy. μηδείς (talk) 05:52, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is, though I don't know how thoroughly. The Chinese standard for Hmong is Dananshan dialect, whereas the Chinese standard for Miao as a whole is a dialect of the Hmu language. At least, that's what we found when we created the WP articles on these languages. — kwami (talk) 01:04, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

furrow in a melon field

Is the space between two ridges in a melon field called a furrow? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.219.72 (talk) 04:08, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes. (see: wikt: furrow; especially if made by a plough) ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 04:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Then they send the melancholy down the rows to bark when he finds a good one ready to pick. :-) StuRat (talk) 04:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Funny you say that. Until I studied the humors in English Lit., I always thought a Melon Colly was a type of drink, like a Mint Julep. μηδείς (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

@StuRat. That sounds almost poetic, in a partially de-reconstructed post-absurdist neo-naive kind of way. A good start to your budding career as Poet Laureate of the Wikipedia Reference Desks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure I would give Stu that credit. I suspect there ar a lot of folk etymologies, false etymologies, and mondegreens associated with this word. μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

If he is so melancholy, give him a cauliflower. That will cure his furrowed eyebrows. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that caul- and chol- don't rhyme? μηδείς (talk) 06:40, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

That depends on the dialect. In my lingo, caul- (as in cauliflower), chol- (as in cholera), and col are homophonous. Coal = cole; and caul = call. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

They rhyme in my dialect, too. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Just remember, English is called English because it's from England, so we are the ones who invented it, so we are always right. :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't say they rhymed, but they are homophones in my dialect, too (southern Ontarian Canadian). Bielle (talk) 20:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I just elicited some samples from people who share my dialect, and the vowel of the first syllable of cauliflower rhymed with caught, while the o vowel of melancholy rhymed with cot. And caught and cot don't rhyme. It's curious whether those saying the two words do have the same vowels also rhyme cot and caught, and if naught, which of the two words has the same vowel they use. μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

sit up sideways

Can I say "The patient struggled to sit up sideways."? Is "sideways" a proper word here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.219.72 (talk) 04:14, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. I'm not even sure what it means, so I can't suggest an alternative. Can you rephrase it? HiLo48 (talk) 04:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

It is a perfectly cromulent (i.e., grammatically acceptable) adverbial genitive. In this case indicating the patient tried to sit up from laying on his side with his belly already flexed, rather than laying flat on his back and flexing his belly as if doing a sit-up. English dialects seem to vary a lot over which of these adverbial genitives, like whilst, which they use. I am American and HiLo is, I believe, Australian. μηδείς (talk) 04:45, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. Do you think you could make a video of you doing it, to make it clear to us all? HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll assume that's a joke. But in case not, lay on your right side, with your waist bent, so that your thighs are at 90 degrees to your trunk. Push yourself upright using your right arm to push away from the bed and your left arm to pull up if you have a rail. That's sitting up sideways. This is very familiar to anyone who's had abdominal surgery and can't flex the abdomen. Or try the reverse. From a sitting position, fall on your right elbow, without straightening your waist. Now, reverse. (-M.)

@μηδείς [—αγεωμέτρητος εισίτω μοι την στέγην]:   Is "cromulent adverbial genitive" an embiggened neologismic locution? ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 07:44, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I had Outis from the Odyssey in mind, but it was taken. μηδείς (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

As an attempt to answer the OP's question: it is grammatically okay, but if this is intended for a general reader, an explanation should be included. Or, "The patient struggled to sit up from a sideways position." — is descriptive enough to avoid confusion, in my opinion; but might not be nuanced for the intended usage. ~:71.20.250.51 (talk)

I don't want to get in an argument, since words are words, not laws of physics, and they can be used in many, many senses. But saying someone struggled to sit up from a sideways position implies to me he was originally lying stretched out straight on his side, not that he didn't turn on his back from that position and try to sit upright by flexing his belly as in a sit-up. μηδείς (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

"Sit up sideways" might be a term of art in the health care field, but most of us find it less-than-obvious to understand. I'm just trying to find phrasing that isn't too verbose, since the intent is to indicate the problem, not to identify it. Maybe this is a case of best to leave well enough alone. — Preceding comment hereby belatedly added by 71.20.250.51 (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)