Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 June 25

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June 25

Czech translation help requested

Hello, you hard-working editor, you! I happened upon an interesting figure in Czech criminal history, and I was hoping to get some help because there aren't many resources available on this dude Harry Jelinek, but there is an article on him at the Czech Wiki, and he seems to have made somewhat of an impression for his criminal ventures. Harry Jelinek was a con artist who apparently duped a bunch of people in the early 1900s--it's unclear to me whether he sued 500 people, or was sued by 500 people for fraud, but somehow he was never prosecuted, which is fairly interesting. One of his biggest cons, (according to what I can tell from the machine translation of the Czech article here) is that he engaged in an elaborate ruse to sell the Karlstejn Castle to American industrialists, by first conning the operators of the Castle that he was filming a movie/documentary, then pretending to be in charge of the facility, treating the victims to an elaborate meal, etc, then selling it for $30,000 or so. I'd like to flesh out the article with at least some of the basic facts, verified DOB, death date, if possible, and most importantly, properly establishing his notability via the references that are in the Czech article. If it's also possible to get the details of his history of cons from these sources, and of his involvement in the printing of pro-Nazi content, that'd be great too. He appears to be an interesting character for a number of reasons. As I've said, I'm having trouble because the machine translations are so poor, and because there isn't a lot of info about him in English souces. If you can help, I'd be quite appreciative, and I'd be happy to follow your lead! Thank you, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

This isn't really a question for the language reference desk. Unfortunately the Czech article is badly written and uncited. But yes, it basically says he went around helping the Lobkowicz family sell their property, offered Karlštejn to American investors and then met the same investors in Split (for secrecy) and also sold them a yacht. The American consulate in Prague found out about it quickly enough but didn't press any charges to avoid the country being shamed. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 08:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't read Czech, but I'd be pretty confident that "Za tu dobu bylo na něho podáno 501 žalob pro podvody" means that 501 suits were filed against him, not that he filed them. "bylo...podáno" is a passive structure ("were filed"), and "na něho" means "at/for/on him". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Using the Czech google page quite a bit of stuff turns up - there might have been a film made about him? Here are the links: [1] [2] (this one says his birth name was Josef, which might help in searching)[3] [4] I'm sorry I don't speak Czech either but it would be great if filekadeshoe could tell you if these are reliable sources at least.174.88.8.213 (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Obliged to you all for the help. If any of you happen to learn Czech soon, come on by!  :) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The česká televize and český rozhlas ones are good. Aha is not so good (it's a tabloid newspaper). The geocaching one has a lot of information but it has no indication of where it comes from, so it may not be considered reliable. And Fut.Perf is correct, it says 501 cases were filed against him. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 08:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Japanese to English Translation, 1Q84

I've been reading the novel 1Q84, and our article says this "1Q84 (One Q Eighty-Four or Q-teen Eighty-Four or ichi-kew-hachi-yon (いちきゅうはちよん Ichi-Kyū-Hachi-Yon?))"

Reading in English, a character thinks to herself (paraphrased) "This is not the year 1984. This is some other place, I will call it 1Q84" The Q stands for "question". So in my head, I read it as "Q-teen Eighty-Four," as a natural analogue to "nineteen eighty-four." But this is rather subtle wordplay in English.

My question is, does any of this wordplay make sense in the original Japanese? Would they use Arabic numerals to write 1984 in Japan in 1984? Apparently "1Q84" is also in some sense the Japanese title, since it is on the cover. Can someone give me a literal or artistic translation of the Japanese (sub)title (google translate only gives "nineteen hachiyon")? I know modern Japanese lit has a lot of English borrowing, and many modern Japanese people know some English. But I imagine that was less true in 1984.

Finally, for reference, can anyone recommend anything written about translation of this novel in particular, or translation of Haruki_Murakami's work to English in general? Thanks! SemanticMantis (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't help. When I saw '1Q84' in the edit summary, I thought this might be something to do with the scrolls from Cave 1 at Qumran, but those only go up to 1Q72.

On the topic of the novel, I'm not sure why it matters how conversant Japanese people were with English in 1984, as the book came out much more recently than that. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Ha! To clarify for others: If a novel is written in Japanese in e.g. 2010 and takes place in 2010, it would be reasonable to have lots of English words sprinkled in, in both exposition and dialogue. Since the novel is set in 1984 (-mostly ;-) having normal Japanese characters dropping English words in conversation might be appropriate and normal, or it might be done for a sense of "weirdness" (which Murakami otherwise seems to love), or maybe there is not much English in the Japanese version of the novel. My main interest is if some of this wordplay is "translated" successfully and artistically, or if it is so clever that it works well in both languages. Murakami in fact has worked as an English-to-Japanese translator, and apparently at times writes portions of his own novels in English first before composing in Japanese. I guess it's a long shot that someone here has read Murakami's novels in both English and Japanese, but I'll take any insight I can get. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Both "1Q84" and "1984" are read as "Ichi-Kyū-Hachi-Yon" in ja. Arabic numerals have been used in Japan since Meiji period. See this image. Oda Mari (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

This article has some interesting material, including the fact that the Japanese title of Norwegian Wood is a deliberate mistranslation of the song's name. In the comments people mention Birnbaum's weird choice of "INKling" as an English rendering of yamikuro (literally darkness-black) in Hard-Boiled Wonderland.

Murakami lived in the U.S. for a decade and has translated English novels into Japanese. I have no evidence that he acted as a consultant in the translation of his own novels to English, but it seems likely.

I think the influence of American English on Japanese goes back to the post-war occupation, but I'm not sure it matters—Murakami loves jazz and Raymond Chandler and his protagonists tend to also, regardless of the tastes of the average Japanese person.

I haven't read 1Q84 (or most of Murakami's novels) in any language, but as Oda Mari said, 9 and Q are both pronounced kyū in Japanese. A Japanese reader would recognize Q as the first letter of the English word "question", so that's probably original too.

The original title of A Wild Sheep Chase was hitsuji o meguru bōken, which just means "adventure concerning (a) sheep". As far as I know there's nothing in the original title analogous to the English play on "wild goose chase". (But Murakami could still have chosen it.) The protagonist's girlfriend clearly references the Japanese title, but not so much the English one, when she tells him that they're about to go on a sheep-related adventure just before he gets the fateful phone call. In the same novel the Sheep Man's dialogue is written withoutspaceslikethis in English. In the original, I think it was in katakana. That seems like a reasonable "translation", since both suggest that there's something funny about the way he talks without being too specific. In Dance, Dance, Dance, the former rundown Dolphin Hotel (iruka hoteru) is rebuilt into the high-class dorufin hoteru, which Birnbarm translated to "l'Hôtel Dauphin", playing on the fact that French is used for faux (er, fake) sophistication by English speakers in the same way that English is used by Japanese speakers.

That's about all I know, or think I know, about translation of wordplay in Murakami's novels. -- BenRG (talk) 22:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I see that you already knew about Murakami's knowledge of English. -- BenRG (talk) 22:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

How do you correctly spell "cayotee" (i.e. a kind of jackal or hyena)?

84.228.160.74 (talk) 19:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Coyote is the most usual spelling. CBHA (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. 84.228.160.74 (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

They seem to be quite remotely related to hyenas, by the way... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:06, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

...and much more closely related to jackals and wolves, in case that was unclear. —Tamfang (talk) 05:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The coyotes I know act more like feral cats than any dog I've met. Shifty-eyed, light-footed and cowardly. Jackals and foxes are sort of the same, but not wolves. Wolves look you right in the face, and what big eyes they have. All the better to read you.

Fun Fact: Some people say the coyote's yellow eyes are actually tree sap. He lost his original eyes because he was a creepy voyeur who fortunately knew an omniscient crow. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Ominous fact: since coyotes are so intelligent, they walk boldly through heavily populated national parks, such as Yosemite's valley, completely insouciantly, ignoring the human elements of the park, knowing that they are protected there. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 00:59, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Insouciantly, eh? Thanks for the word! Guess a lot depends on the community, just like humans. I've never even fired a warning shot over mine, and there are plenty of easy chickens. They must know this, yet they cower at the bushline. Maybe other people in their range haven't been so nice, maybe my goats gangrushed them or maybe there's just something in the water here, turning them into "super geniuses".

I'm not complaining, though. Better a dumb neighbour than a cunning predator. Fishers are murderous psychopaths, and way harder to see. They even taunt us by screaming terribly in the night. I wish coyotes would learn to eat them. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:31, 30 June 2014 (UTC)