Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 March 23

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March 23

remember...as & songs played on the recorder

I'm not sure of the two prepositions "as" and "on" in the following sentences: "His memory is so poor that he even remembers the Mississippi as being only fifty miles." "He listened to the songs played on a recorder." Your clarification would be much appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.216.100 (talk) 01:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

They both look good to me, although the "as" in the first sentence is optional and I'd want to add "long" at the end, and I'm assuming the second sentence refers to the musical instrument "recorder". StuRat (talk) 02:04, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Without "as", the final clause in the first sentence might give the impression that at one time the Mississippi was only 50 files long. Of course, when you read the whole sentence you should see that this isn't the intent. --50.100.193.30 (talk) 03:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Here by "recorder" I mean "a cassette recorder". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.213.75 (talk) 15:08, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Without some context suggesting it, I don't think I would ever understand this to mean a cassette recorder. Obviously, if the context is already talking about recording machines, then that would clinch it, but otherwise I would think a recorder whatever the preposition - "on" is as good as any. --ColinFine (talk) 20:59, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Japanese grammar difficult

In electronics, sometimes two or three of the same sort of part is manufactured within the same housing/package, or "can" as we say. For example, we might have a "double" capacitor. On the drawing we would write simply "20μF + 20μF in same can", or "20μF + 20μF in one can". How do you write this in Japanese? I tried various equivalent English phases and full sentences in GoogleTranslate and Babylon, but upon machine tranlating back into English it always resulted in something quite different, e.g., Two 20 uF in same can comes back as The same as you can x202uF! 1.122.115.27 (talk) 08:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I would say 同一カン内の２×20μF. Not sure if this is correct, however. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:01, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, much better than my efforts anyway. Many thanks 1.122.115.27 (talk) 11:43, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

"Geekspeak" as dialect

I remember reading, a couple years ago, an article linked to from this very ref desk. It was a summary of a linguists' observations of so-called "geekspeak" -- i.e., speech patterns and tics particular to members of the geek subculture/s of the English-speaking world. Much of it was anecdotal rather than research-based, but covered things in a fairly technical linguistic way, analysing how phonemes come together to form words, how certain things are pronounced differently than in mainstream types of English. The eventual conclusion of the article was that "geekspeak" (I believe he/she used a different term) can be understood as a dialect of English unto itself, a collection of vocal shibboleths particular to the subculture. 64.147.222.97 (talk) 09:44, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

There's something about such topics in the introductions to the Jargon File (though not the broad sweeping conclusion in that form)... AnonMoos (talk) 10:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Possibly also of interest: http://www.fantasymaps.com/stuff/fanspeak.html —Tamfang (talk) 08:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

(OP) - That's it, Tamfang! A bit less developed than I had remembered, but thanks very much! 198.86.53.69 (talk) 18:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The couple's quarrels are the rule rather than the exception.

To describe how often a couple have quarrels, can I say "The couple's quarrels are the rule rather than the exception." or alternatively "Hardly two days pass without the couple's quarrelling." in colloquial English? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.213.75 (talk) 15:17, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Many possibilities. "They quarrel more days than not." —Tamfang (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Or perhaps "They are a modern day Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald". Apparently they quarrelled so regularly and loudly that Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, who lived in the same apartment complex for some time, would have a daily betting competition on which one of them would win. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:54, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Japanese character identification

I have identified most of the characters in the scan at http://i57.tinypic.com/e7hqx5.jpg:-

6R-A3は ? ? ? 電圧レギュレータ用のHi-S管 ? ? あ ? ます。 (= something about the 6R-A3 device good in voltage regulators due to high slope?)

However I cannot work out the characters marked by question marks (?). Can someone supply the missing ones? Quite likely I have one or more characters wrong too. [Doc nearly all done] 1.122.115.27 (talk) 15:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I can give you the characters but I'm not very confident about translating it as I don't fully understand the technical language:

6R-A3は他に定電圧レギュレータ用のHi-S管 も あ り ます。

86.130.66.9 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks, 86.130.66.9. You and I would make a good team. I have the technology knowlege to translate it, but not the ability to recognise characters like you do. A reasonable translation appears to be The 6R-A3 tube, having high slope, can also be used in voltage regulation. A straight character-by-character literal translation makes no sense. Where has KageTora gone? he has character recognition, grammar, and sufficient technology knowlege. 1.122.115.27 (talk) 04:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the original text is this. The sentence means there are two types of 6R-A3, Hi-Fi and Hi-S. Oda Mari (talk) 08:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Mari, thank you for finding the data sheet on line. It is a clearer scan than the one I have. The one I have cannot be read with OCR, but the one you found might do better, though I have nearly all of it translated already.

However, there is definately NOT two versions of the 6R-A3 - just two versions of the packaging. Apart from the fact that I possess a laboratory instrument that uses the 6R-A3 in its regulated power supply, and the markings on it are identical to that depicted in the datasheet you found, the identification code, 6R-A3 (American form 6RA3) is an industry standard code. While the datasheet is a Toshiba datasheet, you would have been able, in the 1960's, to purchase 6R-A3's from any Japanese vacuum tube manufacturer (and possibly an American manaufacturer as well, though no American manufacturer issued a datasheet for it). The code (6R-A3) would have been registered with the relavent industry standardisation organisation(s) in Japan and elsewhere, along with its physical and performance specification. If a variant was made, it would have to have been issued with another type number, either 6R-Ax (x another number) or 6R-A3a. In fact there are tubes with type numbers 6R-A1 through to 6R-A5 - they all have different specifications to the 6R-A3.

"Hi-S" is an industry term that means "high slope", which is what the 6R-A3 is in any case. It appears that Hi-Fi and Hi-S, standard industry terms in the 1950's and 1960's, have been used as marketing terms by Toshiba. The 6R-A3 has a specification that clearly indicates it was designed for power regulation service (very high heater-cathode voltage spec, big grid base), but some Toshiba sales chap has attempted to win sales for audio amplifier use as well by having it branded "Hi Fi". Its' specification is not optimal for audio amplifiers (big grid base requires too much grid drive voltage).

124.178.107.238 (talk) 10:32, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

If Mari is on the case then my comments are rather superfluous, but in the light of your explanation of what the hell kind of thing this talking about, it looks to me as if the sentence says "In addition, there is a Hi-S tube 6R-A3 for use as a voltage regulator." The first part of the full text is referring to 6R-A3 Hi-Fi用, which I presume means 6R-A3 for use in Hi-Fi equipment. In the first sentence it says that the "Hi-Fi version" is used for 電力増幅, which I believe means power amplification. 86.169.185.98 (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, the perils of translating technical material. I remember in the 1960's Japanese consumer electronics goods came with manuals we Westerners referred to as being written in "Jinglish". The words were spelt correctly according to the OED. The grammar was a bit strange. And they often didn't make a lick of sense. But in the 1970's instruction books and manuals for Japanese goods became excellent. Being a professional engineer, I've read more than a few translated papers in journals that didn't make much sense either.

You can be sure there is only one type of 6R-A3. The one described in the "Hi Fi" datasheet Mari found IS a high-slope (Hi-S) tube - a distinctly high slope tube in fact. Electronic parts are highly standardised, so a manufacturer, or a serviceman, can buy parts from which ever parts supplier has the best deal, with complete confidence that it will work just the same. A variant MUST have a diferent type code.

I'm not meaning to insult, but what is your knowlege of the Japanese language? Mine is very minimal. I rely on online machine translators (with help from Reference desk on this one). Much more so than European languages, you go seriously astray trying to decode Japapanse by breaking a sentence up in into parts and translating each word or phrase on its' own. Here is GoogleTranslate's version:-

There is also a Hi-S tube of constant voltage regulator for the other 6R-A3.

That fails grammatically. (There is also an XYZ of abc for the other XYZ - clearly nonsense)

Babylon10's version:

6R-A3 has the Hi-S pipe for constant voltage regulators elsewhere.

Noting that "pipe" and "tube" (the 6R-A3 is a vacuum tube) are the same word in Japanese, and their grammar is difficult to deal with, this is a very plausible translation. To an electronics engineer, it reads as "6R-A3 is a high-slope tube also suitable for constant voltage regulators."

Here is BingTranslator's version:

6R-A3 the other constant voltage regulator for Hi-S pipe there will.

Obviously the Japanese grammar has confused it. Voltage regulators aren't for the tube - the tube is for use in voltage regulators.

I was hoping KageTora would come back and explain the grammar in this case.

124.178.107.238 (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Forget about my translation. But it looks like 86.169.185.98's translation to me, a native speaker with no knowledge of tubes. According to this page, it was originally developed as a constant voltage power supply tube, but because of its low output impedance, it was also used for audio amplifier. This page says, the original developer was NEC in 1958 and here is the data sheet. Hope these helps. Oda Mari (talk)

Indeed, the NEC version of the datasheet you found is a great help. Thank you very much, Mari. The 6AS7 it is compared with in the NEC data is a very well known American tube specifically intended for power regulation service. 120.145.131.60 (talk) 22:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)