Language desk
< September 5	<< Aug \| Sep \| Oct >>	September 7 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

September 6

Article in Arabic place names

Why do some Arabic place names have the definite article while others don't? I'm saying not about transliteration from Arabic but the usage in Arabic itself.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, sometimes the definite article is added mistakenly, and then later mistakenly removed. Check the etymology of İskenderun, which evolved from "Alexandria" to "Alexandretta" to "Alexandrou" to "al-ʼIskandarūn" (not that the "Al" from Alexander is now the definite article) which was dropped when the name migrated from Arabic to Turkish. Likewise, in Arabic, it treats the first syllable in Alexandria is treated as the Arabic definite article. --Jayron32 04:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fringe example (here also Lisbon>al-ʼIšbūnaḧ), while you can see from the list above many natural Arabic names have the article while others don't.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not unique to Arabic, btw: there are place names with and without articles in Italian, French, Spanish, Dutch ... —Tamfang (talk) 06:17, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish Lilo & Stitch

Could somebody transcribe this (72 seconds video)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTZ7_KTWcVE

I've found subtitles for it but they seem to follow another dub.

157.157.90.196 (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Why didn't you wait at the school? You were supposed to wait there! Lilo! Don't you understand? Do you want them to take you away? Speak to me!"

"No!"

"So you don't understand?"

"No!"

"You don't what?"

"Noooo!"

"You're such a bother!"

"So why don't you sell me and buy yourself a hamster or something instead?"

"At least a hamster would have manners!"

"Go ahead! You would become glad because it would be a lot smarter than me!"

"And quiet!"

"You would like it because it [...] to you!" (I can't make out the verb Lilo is using at 0:57)

"Go to your room!"

"No, I am in my room!" JIP | Talk 13:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I want a transcription, not a translation. 157.157.90.196 (talk) 13:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Mikset odottanut koululla? Sun piti odottaa siellä! Lilo! Etkö sä ymmärrä? Haluutko sä että ne vie sut pois? Puhu mulle!"

"En!"

"Eli et ymmärrä?"

"En!"

"Et mitä?"

"Eiii!"

"Sä oot yks riesa!"

"Mikset myy mua ja osta vaikka hamsteria tilalle?"

"Hamsterilla ainakin olis käytöstapoja!"

"Siitä vaan! Tulisit iloseks koska se olis paljon fiksumpi kuin mä!"

"Ja äänetön!"

"Tykkäisit siitä koska se" (I can't make out this word) "sulle!"

"Mene huoneesees!"

"Eikä kun mä olen mun huonees!"

This is all in spoken Finnish, properly grammatical written Finnish would spell a few words differently. But this is how Finns speak in casual everyday life. I count two instances where Lilo speaks ungrammatically, she actually says osta vaikka hamsteri instead of osta vaikka hamsteria, although the partitive case is required when the sentence is in a question or negative mood. In the last line, she actually says mä olen mun huone ("I am my room") instead of mä olen mun huonees ("I am in my room"). I haven't watched the show so I don't know if she is really supposed to make such errors. JIP | Talk 14:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

wikiquote:Lilo & Stitch has the original dialogue. The word you couldn't make out is probably a variant of "stinky". -- BenRG (talk) 19:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I remembered one bit wrong. The partitive case is only required if the sentence is in a negative mood, regardless of whether it is a question. Lilo seems to be saying something beginning with ha in the bit I couldn't make out, so perhaps it is haisis ("would stink") or haistais ("would smell", as in perceiving stench). I found it interesting that the original English dialogue mentions a rabbit but the Finnish translation mentions a hamster. JIP | Talk 13:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it's beautiful (the way it sounds, but seeing it written is another way of getting into it). 157.157.90.196 (talk) 14:43, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The endings of the ordinals

First
Second
Third
Fourth

The first four ordinals have four different endings in their English spelling. Are there any other languages with such a diversity of endings in their spelling of the ordinal numbers? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian has entirely different numbers:

Първа
Втори
Трета
четвърти

KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Russian is similar, but the pattern settles down from "third": первый, второй, третий, четвёртий, .... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what you define as "endings". Russian (and Slavic in general) ordinals hаve adjective endings and decline like adjectives. The example above for Bulgarian is wrong [1], in Russian they are practically similar перв-ый/ая/ое/ые, втор-ой/ая/ое/ые, трет-ий/ье/ья/ьи, четвёрт-ый/ая/ое/ые, пят-ый/ая/ое/ые...--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian:

i parë
së dyti
tretë
katërt

KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(As a bonus, some languages don't have numbers past three, anyway, such as Piraha) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic is even more irregular than English. Here are some numerals (masculine where different forms exist by gender) and the masculine nominative singular forms for ordinals (note that the declension for annar is highly irregular):

(1) einn -> fyrsti
(2) tveir -> annar
(3) þrír -> þriðji
(4) fjórir -> fjórði
(5) fimm -> fimmti
(6) sex -> sjötti
(7) sjö -> sjöundi
(8) átta -> áttundi
(9) níu -> níundi
(10) tíu -> tíundi
(11) ellefu -> ellefti
(12) tólf -> tólfti
(13) þrettán -> þrettándi
(14) fjórtán -> fjórtándi
....
(20) tuttugu -> tuttugasti
(30) þrjátíu -> þrítugasti
(40) fjörutíu -> fertugasti
(50) fimmtíu -> fimmtugasti
(60) sextíu -> sextugasti

While a regular pattern occurs for ordinals between 14th and 19th, irregularity returns for multiples of 10th up to 40th. A completely regular pattern doesn't begin until 50th. (Hundrað -> hundraðasti is a new construction, but a construction followed by all subsequent powers of ten, such as þúsund -> þúsundasti.) Marco polo (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating. If the English pattern could be labelled ABCDDDDDDD ..., the Icelandic would be ABCDAAEEEEAAEE ... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the alternation (after the first few) is due to sandhi. —Tamfang (talk) 07:38, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See cofinality. --Trovatore (talk) 21:32, 6 September 2014 (UTC) [reply]

Jack of Oz, you can check in wikt:Category:Ordinal numbers by language.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 6

Contents

September 6

Article in Arabic place names

Finnish Lilo & Stitch

The endings of the ordinals