Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 11

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April 11

Historical cases of language renouncing due to dissatisfaction with progressing shifts or the like?

I've heard before that some Goths adopted Greek due to Greek's prestige at the time, and that some people moved and mixed in with the local populaces and languages of other countries before, but have there been any notable cases of (even just independent notable individuals) renouncing their mother tongue and adopting a different one due to dissatisfaction with how their mother tongue was progressing? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Would Esperanto figure into the discussion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably not, due to Esperanto still being basically a linguistic curiosity, or a failed experiment, depending on your perspective. As far as what constituted a person's "native tongue", consider the case of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (aka Charles I of Spain). Born in Flanders, he is famously claimed to have said, of his own native language "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse." His first language was probably French, which was lingua franca among Continental nobility, and had the prestige as a noble language. Even English and Russian nobility tended to learn it from an early age, see Francophile which discusses the widespread use of French among the upper classes across Europe, regardless of local language. Even the German monarch Frederick the Great named his palace Sanssouci (a French term, and notably NOT the German equivalent). Prestige languages are common across history. Even into the 20th and 21st centuries, you can see things like this, such as the German heavy metal band Scorpions] almost exclusively singing in English, which has come to be the sort of lingua franca French had been in the 18th and 19th centuries. --Jayron32 04:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

We have not to go too far. Peoples of Africa practically are abandoning their native tongues. Even if they're still speaking them, they use English/French/Portuguese in any "important" situations, and there are many millions of Africans who know nothing but the tongue of the former metropolis.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be like Aboriginal languages in Canada? More because the Native language is being overwhelmed rather than by choice. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Canadian Natives live as a minority among the very dominating and unforgiving English and (at a lesser extend) French majority. It's no wonder they are giving up their native languages to English/French. This has been happening for centuries all around the New World and for millenniums all around the Globe, when majority linguistically assimilates minority. But in sub-Saharan Africa there are hardly 1-2% of Europeans (the ZAR is an exception even there they are hardly 12%). Africans (or more accurately African quasi-independent but in fact crypto-colonial ruling elites) consciously chose the languages of their former metropoles to the detriment of their many local languages. In fact, such things as Francophonie and Lusofonia (which no wonder are heavily promoted by the former metropoles) are unnoticeably but steadily killing African languages, there are millions of urban Africans who speak nothing but the "official" language of the country. Though we hardly can blame common Africans as they are just trying to live a better life and their government directly created such a situation (for example, you can enter a university, or become a government clerk or a soldier/policeman only after having known the "official" language).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• What does "how their mother tongue was progressing" mean? Most languages don't develop teleologically. —Tamfang (talk) 09:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Tamfang: I mean that the individual or group of people was/were dissatisfied with what their native language was becoming during their lifetime/as time was progressing.

So, basically, they would choose to speak another language entirely and travel to where that language was spoken rather than continue to speak a language that they felt was becoming foul. Or something like that. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I doubt anyone would voluntarily abandon their language. But the Great Vowel Shift is something like an example of what you're talking about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I cannot think of any cases where languages were dropped because they were simply worried about how it was being spoken by a certain group of people within their community. People have changed languages, sure, due to either being dominated by another group of people speaking a different language (Continental Celts, for example, now speak variations of Vulgar Latin) or the actual invaders adopting the local language. The Normans invaded Britannia, and for a time spoke Mediaeval French until switching to English after a while, the Danes in England spoke a language which, at the time of their invasion of England, was very similar to Anglo-Saxon, so they had no trouble learning English. The Swedish Rus Vikings went East, and Russia is actually named after them, despite the fact that they assimilated with the local Slavic populations. Languages can be changed either by domination or assimilation, as well as other reasons, such as innovation. How many 'German-Americans' can speak German? This was not by choice and worries about how the language was changing, it was more about being able to speak to the people around you. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 17:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Ayn Rand, who was a Russian Jew spoke French at home, as did Vladimir Nabokov, whose sisters she was friends with. One of my high school French teachers was from Romania, and had been held and tattooed in a Nazi concentration camp during the war. She said her family did not consider themselves Romanian, and that they had spoken French at home. When my parents offered to pay for her to teach me Romanian, she refused with revulsion, saying it was a "gutter language." μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Interesting... thanks much for the information, Medeis. I will look into these people. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

They are famous writers. They fit your example, but I doubt you will find much of interest on Rand, in this regard. She was partiticualry adamant in her zeal for America and being American, which she said she chose, rather than being born into. She was also critical of Russian culture, which she described as mystic and malevolent. But not based on the language itself, which in which she retained her fluency. She did speak up against antisemitism when faced with it, advising fools who didn't see the obvious that "I too am a Jew" which lost her at least one friendship. Again, none of this is purely linguistic. I am not very knowledgeable on Nabokov.

I can say that there were mixed feelings in my family, with different relatives of different generations rejecting or retaining their native Rusyn language. They all spoke fluent English. Some dropped the language since they wanted "to be Americans" others kept it, spoke it, and passed it on, and others used it as a secret language which the children wouldn't understand, hence not passing it on. My mother's mother was one of the few who neither rejected it nor tried to keep it secret. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not the secret of Polichinelle that most Russian Jews despise ("critical") the Russian culture, Russia and Russians in general (there are some examples of Russophile Jews but they are just exceptions which prove the rule). They speak Russian just because there was/is no much choice (though in the bloody Russian Empire they could speak Yiddish or Polish which most of them did), and they happily abandon Russian when they have such a choice. So when someone gives émigré Russian Jews as an example of "something Russian", I am always much confused and disappointed. Yes, they were born there and speak or spoke Russian but their "Russianness" ends here. Rand's not a good example. Nabokov was an ethic Russian and he never fully abandoned his native language or his roots (though he took his exile somewhat hard).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Not having a czarist pale or the concept pogrom in America, one can forgive the fact that American Jews have a different attitude tords their adopted homeland. μηδείς (talk) 21:56, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Song of the Paddle transcription

What's being said at 15:44–15:45 from "Song of the Paddle"? The following transcripts the event, starting at 15:37:

Speaker: "But Paul, how are you gonna miss that rock in the middle?" Second speaker: "Well, that's not the one I'm worried about. The stuff downstream is the problem. I think we better [unknown word or phrase] it."

What is the unknown word or phrase? Thanks. Seattle (talk) 20:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

My speakers are still not working, but my guess is "portage" that is to say, carry the boats around the difficult part; which is exactly what they do next. Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. Thank you. Seattle (talk) 21:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Blimey! A technical paddlesport question on the Language RefDesk - my cup runneth over. Alansplodge (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)