Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 August 1

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August 1

Dynamics vs. tempo

This question is moved from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment 09:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

With both dynamics and tempo, -issimo means very.

However, moderately is represented by mezzo with dynamics (mezzo piano, not pianetto) but the -etto suffix with tempo (larghetto, not mezzo largo.) Why this inconsistency?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

This is really a question about the Italian language, rather than about music per se. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Georgia guy: Wiktionary says that -etto is diminutive, while "mezzo" actually means "moderately" or "medium". It's worth noting this but it still doesn't explain everything, I think. Eman235/talk 10:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Diminutive suffixes like -etto, -ino etc. (allegretto, andantino) are encountered when the preceding word is being used as a noun, describing the overall character of a piece. In these cases, the diminutive denotes not merely a moderate "degree", but a somewhat lighter, less intense quality than the base word. When tempo words are being used just as a quantitative indication of "faster" vs. "slower", you do get adjectival modifiers (meno largo, adagio assai, allegro ma non troppo, piu presto). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Regarding andantino: does the diminutive make it faster or slower? (I'm well aware that composers have used it to mean both, but I'm wondering which one it would literally mean in Italian.) And what to make of andante molto (e.g. Schubert D 568, second movement)?

(My favourite tempo-marking ambiguity: Allegro con fuoco ma non troppo at the beginning of the Wanderer Fantasy. Now is that supposed to mean "Allegro with not too much fire", or "not too Allegro, but with fire"?) Double sharp (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

"Allegro con fuoco, but try to avoid showing off merely for effect" Elphion (talk) 17:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

It's a warning not to take it too fast, because you'd soon get into hot water. Schubert was apparently unable to play the Wanderer himself, at least to the standard he prescribed for others. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:17, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't know Schubert was a writer for Elvis Presley. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 02:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Was that the same Elvis Presley who encapsulated his art, life and career with the immortal: I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have to. ? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

User:JackofOz, Just to make sure we are talking about the same Elvis, you can have a cigar if you complete the following sentence: "Elvis Presley died on...." <- Trivia question. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 16:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Old vs. young and new

This question is moved from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment 09:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Why is old the opposite of both young and new (in every language I know except Esperanto)? —Tamfang (talk) 08:44, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

That's just the way English has developed. Georgia guy (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• That answer might be satisfactory if I knew only two languages. —Tamfang (talk) 08:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Because "young" and "new" are synonyms (although "young" is more often used to describe living things, at least in English) ? StuRat (talk) 21:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

There are of course plenty of languages where "old" ('aged', of people) and "old" ('no longer new', of things) are distinguished similarly to the way "young" and "new" are distinguished in English. In Modern Greek, the one is megalos, the other is palios. In Mandarin Chinese, there's 老 lǎo vs. 旧 jiù, and so on. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I suppose English also has words for "old" that mainly apply to people or at least living things. There's elderly, senior, senescent, etc. StuRat (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

In Modern Greek, the adjective "μεγάλος" means "big" (compare English "megalopolis" and "megalomania"), but the adjective "γέρος" means "old" in describing a person (compare English "gerontology" and "geriatric").

—Wavelength (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's actually a bit more complicated: γέρος means 'old' in the absolute sense, i.e. somebody having reached actual old age (implying declining health etc.), whereas μεγάλος (literally 'big', as you rightly say) is the more neutral and general way of referring to somebody's age, like when you say "X is older than Y" (something you could say about two kids just as well as about two adults.) – Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

• New and now come from the same PIE root. This root has cognates in many Eurasiatic languages. Young comes from a root meaning vigorous, while old is cognate with Latin altus and means something like raised to maturity. See old at etymology online. μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Profundicate

I was looking for synonyms for the word "puzzle" and found a profundity...the word "profundicate". It's not in any dictionary I can find, and my spellchecker doesn't know it either, but thesaurus.com seems to think it means "to puzzle". Anyone seen this word before? (And if you have a citation, add it to Wiktionary!) Eman235/talk 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

IIRC, its implication is "to make deeper (in intellectual terms, not as making a hole deeper)" - much as a professor writing a text may seem inclined at times to "puzzle" the students when making a topic deeper than it needs to be (IMO - <g>). Collect (talk) 12:53, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Now here's another profundity: profundicate does not appear as a lemma in the OED. The closest word I found was profundify, but – lo and behold – a 1995 quotation under profundify stated: "Profundify or profundicate the speech. Use Roget's Thesaurus to make simple ideas seem profound." — SMUconlaw (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see. It's a neologism created by James Boren and (first?) mentioned in his book The Bureaucratic Zoo (1976). I've created a Wiktionary entry. — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. Maybe the OED editors will notice and add it. Eman235/talk 14:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I've also created profundify. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

An overly complex word for making words overly complex, I love it. Why use a short word when a polysyllabic word will work ? :-) StuRat (talk) 16:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Why use a three-character word (such as its) when you can add a 4th character (to make it's)? ... Sorry, couldn't resist (because we're reliably informed that resistance is futile).  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I doubt Boren created the word for sure - the word is found by 1974 at least (per Google). I suspect it goes back a ways - as it did not seem abstruse when I found it here. Collect (talk) 18:56, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I did find the apparent 1974 quotation using Quiet Quentin at Wiktionary, but because the full text of the journal is not available online and because the text quoted also appears word-for-word in a 1979 issue of the same journal, I suspect that the 1974 one might be a mistake (perhaps a typo by Google?). — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, scratch that – according to the 2012 quotation at profundicate, there is a 1972 book by Boren which uses the term. This must be When in Doubt, Mumble. It's not available online so I can't include a quotation to it, but I've mentioned it in the etymology. — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

That's my boy, sonny Jim, chip off the wiki-block. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

This place is hilarious. Eman235/talk 08:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You don't know the half of it ... — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Linguistic skeuomorphism

Is there a better term for what one might call "linguistic skeuomorphism"? By that I mean terms for modern things which anachronistically refer to the way they used to be made or done. So we still talk about "typing", but that no longer uses actual type; a car (in the US at least) has a trunk which was, but isn't now, a trunk; and at least in Britain (e.g. in the BBC) a telegraph pole still describes something that surely carries no telegraph messages at all. This discussion shares my comparison to skeuomorphism, but is there an actual term in (academic?) use for this process? -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 18:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

I would call this linguistic conservatism - the automated voice tells us we have "dialled an incorrect number" or to "hang up now". Trains still steam out of the station and we say "I don't want coppers" or "I only have silver" although copper coins have not been minted since 1860 and silver ones since 1946 (although the Maundy money is sterling silver). Actually the "coppers" are just steel discs with just enough copper plate to make them the traditional weight, and the "silver" is the same, although the plating is cupro - nickel. There must be many more examples - we go to the booking office to buy a train ticket because when the railways started the clerk entered the details of the journey in a book. I could go on. 86.134.217.6 (talk) 19:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

We "write" emails when we do not "write" any more, and definitely do not use the "mail" which originally apparently meant "wallet." We get food in "tin cans" which are no longer tin. Meanings change gradually - but vocabularies change even more slowly. We read "newspapers" online. It is how all languages have always worked - and why we still use words which are thousands of years old. Collect (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

See "Retronym" and "List of retronyms".—Wavelength (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

A few notes on specific terms mentioned above:

• "Typing" never involved type. (Okay, The OED Online does show "To reproduce by means of type" as one meaning, but it's a rare enough sense that I think we can ignore it.) The term arose in its modern sense in relation to a typewriter, which merely produces letters similar to those of actual type. Of course, this is still a similar extension of the original word "type".
• Ending a call using a wall-mounted phone, such as most pay phones, still typically involves an actual action of "hanging up". (Yes, there are still lots of pay phones.)
• As a railfan, I've read lots of material about trains, both British and North American writing, and I don't think I've ever seen modern trains described as "steaming out of the station". On the other hand, the designers of these signs have a lot to answer for.
• Tin cans were never made of tin; the term refers to tin-plated steel, which is still used.

--65.94.50.73 (talk) 03:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

In the United States, only 7% as many pay phones exist currently as compared to 1999, according to this article in Barron's. I assume the situation is similar in other countries. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:21, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

"Tin cans" had tin plating after 1818, and the tin plated can was patented in 1825 apparently - before that they appear to have been "tin" - the modern "tin can" is frequently aluminium entirely. Luckily the can opener dates to 1865. WRT "pay phones" - many of the remaining 7% do not take coins at all. IIRC, many nations do not use coins at all, and use tokens or cards only. Collect (talk) 12:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

In the UK we still use coins for payphones. The only problem is, they don't have signs anymore telling you how much it is. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 15:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

In this area they're very helpful. They tell you you can use either euro or sterling, picture the coins you can insert and list the charges. 86.134.217.6 (talk) 13:20, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, I live in Scouseland. The pictures of the coins were probably stolen. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 03:04, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Horrible posh accent

I speak with a posh 'queens' english accent. I want rid of it or to soften it around the edges as much as possible. Are there any good free apps / sites or tutorials that can help me kill it off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.140.244 (talk) 23:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Here's a useful site trailer site. Try it for a year or two. Works a treat, ya gobshite scumbag. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Or, watch some classic Bugs Bunny cartoons and try to talk like him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Moving from Queens to ... is it Brooklyn or the Bronx he's supposed to be from? --Trovatore (talk) 02:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

According to Mel Blanc, he's got a touch of both, as noted at about 3:15 here.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It is wonderful to have an expert contributing, Baseball Bugs (munching on a carrot). Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

"No One Knows" what I mean BB, because I've got the wrong "queens" there. *sob* Martinevans123 (talk) 09:00, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

So, did the OP mean "the Queen's English" or "Queens English", after all? (Or even a kind of "queens' English"? By the way, this phenomenon appears to be what Danny Ryan's comment there alludes to.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I have met people who have been away from the UK for decades - and are still identifiable. Or from New England, the US Midwest, or other places with distinct accents. One learns vocal sounds as a young child - and it is very hard to obliterate them. One classic is the "l/r" sound for some Asian languages, or the "click" found in some African languages. Some actors use "fake accents" which are occasionally a tad more humorous than accurate. It is far easier to concentrate on the cadence, which is the other defining characteristic (in fact, the cadence distinguishes New Yorkese from other accents). (I, alas, in conversation tend to reflect the other person's accent as a result of hearing so many as a child. Really fun when a London PC thought I was a senior inspector <g>.) Collect (talk) 12:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I had a girlfriend from Yorkshire who spoke with an impeccable London accent, having not been "up north" for ten years. Occasionally she would lapse into dialect. When her sister, who still lived there, came for a visit she spoke the same pure Yorkshire which I found very hard to follow (I've never ventured further north than Liverpool). Maybe the OP should move to Birmingham. 86.134.217.6 (talk) 16:03, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

One thing that has puzzled me is when people who spend a long time away from the country of their birth complain that they have forgotten their native tongue. Can this be true, and if so, how can it happen? 86.134.217.6 (talk) 16:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that people usually completely forget languages that they used to speak fluently, purely from disuse. What is more likely to happen is that the neural connections and pathways become more tenuous or indirect, so the language simply does not come as easily as it used to. However, once you meet speakers of your native language again, or even visit the country where you were born and stay a while, it comes back. (My grandfather reported having that experience when he started hearing people talk in Czech for the first time after decades.) Picturesquely, I'd describe this as the language lying dormant or hibernating in the back of your head, to be reactivated when needed. Even if you believe adamantly you have forgotten it all and completely re-learn the language, you'll almost certainly find that the process is significantly faster than for other learners without any previous knowledge. Linguists (including especially dialectologists) have worked with informants who have not spoken a language or dialect for as much as sixty years (I remember examples like this from the Linguistic Atlas and Survey of Irish Dialects). Also compare Tuone Udaina, for whom Vegliot was not even a true first language, and he could still act as a main informant for Bartoli even though he had not spoken the language for almost twenty years. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• If you wish to become able to code switch as an adult, you either need (1) a natural aptitude, brought out by a basic study of linguistics (a class comparable to Cornell University's Linguistics 201 for majors) and familiarity with at least on language other than your own. Without that background, you will find it almost impossible to realize what is going on in your mouth, as the lay mind ignores subtle differences that cause a "noticeable accent" but which don't change the meaning.

Otherwise (2) you will need feedback from a trained voice coach or speech therapist, or, if you are lucky, to live with someone who speaks your target dialect and the mutual patience to correct and be corrected each time you pronounce a word in the undesired way.

Although born in NY, I grew up in South Jersey. The two dialects are very similar (if one compares educated Manhattanite, not Brooklynese) save for a few things, like the SJ use of the fronted RP "eh-oo" sound for "long o" (I want to gew hewm) the SJ or>ar as in Flarida, arange and farhead for the state, fruit, and part of the face. Those pronunciations marked me out as did the use of "wooter" for "water", and the standard "stand in line" and "forward" as opposed to the NYC "stand on line" and "foward". Strangely enough, three decades ago I would get asked if I was "from the South", but NY'ers couldn't point out what made them ask the question. I was able to correct this on my own after about 6 months of practice, so as to be accepted as an "accentless" native, and I know one other person with a heavy Deep South accent who did it given a natural talent for languages and music and relentless teasing from other college students. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Cornell comparable qualification, or a trained voice coach or speech therapist, yeah? You can't just live in two different places for an extended time? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I am speaking in generalities, and the introduction for majors course at Cornell (when I took it) covered enough phonology to let the student pick up why he had a certain accent in other's ears. Some people are tone deaf and others have perfect pitch. Most of us have to have formal training to become adept at music, or be immersed in it as a child. I can speak three dialects of English: South Jersey, Posh Manhattan, and Uptown "Urban" NYC, as well as Spanish at a native level and French and German well enough to hold a conversation, and enough Russian/Rusyn to survive. I have only had one semester of Russian, but was told at the time, "Please don't take this the wrong way, but you have the most beautiful vowels."

So it's certainly not impossible for someone like Madonna to acquire an accent by living somewhere as an adult. You can judge how well you think she speaks British English. I wouldn't discourage trying, but I think the best bet is either to take a course or to get a lover or roommate who is language-savvy and will be happy to correct you. As a final analogy, let me ask, do you think you could learn to ride a bike from reading a book, or watching a website? Feedback matters. μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

To answer the OP, yes, there are free accent reduction tutorials or apps online. Example: [2]. You should refine your search, however, depending on the specific accent that you want to acquire (rather than, as you asked us, than searching by the one you want to lose). 184.147.133.47 (talk) 20:14, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This might prove useful. Tevildo (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)