Language desk
< July 24	<< Jun \| July \| Aug >>	Current desk >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 25

More mystery Chinese characters (and a dash of Tibetan)

I have a second instalment of puzzling characters which I'd appreciate help with.

Chinese

Transcription of Om mani padme hum. Judging by this page, for the second-last character I'm looking for the mouth radical plus 17 strokes; it doesn't seem to exist in Unicode. Is this right?

Here, the first footnote means "August Guard of the Gate of Heaven" -- 威X天門 -- but I can't find the second character (presumably meaning "guard").

Here the second character in the Chinese here looks simple, but seems not to exist. This is the name of the Moso or Mosuo people.

Here the second character is another simple-looking, but elusive character using the "比" element. This is the name of the Lisu or Liso people.

Transcribed as "T'ai Ho Chên"; the name of a small town. The closest I can find for the third character is "鍖" -- could it be a variant form?

Here "郤" plus moon or flesh radical seems not to exist.

Tibetan

The book also includes a few Tibetan words which I've tried to reproduce using the Tibetan alphabet page, with limited success.

Om mani padme hum. "ཨོམ་མ་ཎི་པད་མེ་ཧམ་" looks like a transcription of the Tibetan (apart from the vowel(?) on the second-last letter, which I can't find), but all versions which I find online are quite different. Is the book's text wrong?

brTen. First word in footnote 4: the closest I can get is བརཷན་, which doesn't seem quite right. Similarly with the second word: "སང་བ་" is not quite right. Both these words refer to an amulet or charm.

Treasury-hand and lieutenant. No idea about either of these words.

Long title. No idea. I got as far as "ཧ་དབར་བ", which has no Google hits.

A-jol. This is the Chinese Adunzi in Yunnan, but I can't find the Tibetan version of the name.

Ajang. No idea about the Tibetan name here.

Thanks for any help you can give me with these! Henry ^Flower 06:43, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your second Chinese question: the "guard" character is probably a poorly written "鎮" [1]. The character in the town name "T'ai Ho Chê" (your second-from-last question) might be the same character too, as it seems to appear regularly in town names. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- that looks plausible. Henry ^Flower 12:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For your first Tibetan question, the Tibetan is properly written ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ Tibetan script is derived from Indic scripts and uses the Anusvara (the small open "cirlce" above the initial consonant) for final "m" in om and hum. Also, as an Indic-derived script, it employs "stacking" for consonant clusters such as the "-dm-" in padme so the "m" portion is written under the "d".--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 19:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For your second Tibetan question, brTen is written བརྟེན "b","r","subscript t","e" (over the "rt" combination), "n". And srung-ba is written སྲུངབ (the "u" vowel in the book you link looks a bit different, but I suspect it is a font issue). Tibetan writing hasn't changed much in the last 1000 years while the language has changed substantially, most notably by simplifying consonant clusters. The word written brTen is actually pronounced in modern Tibetan as "ten" and srung-ba is pronounced sung-wa (sung means "to protect" and "wa" is a noun-making particle, hence "protection"). If you don't have the ability to type in Tibetan fonts, you can use character picker sites such as this to write most words.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 22:13, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you just want the Tibetan text transcribed?

brTen: བརྟེན་
srung-ba: སྲུང་བ་
Treasury hand: ཕྱག་མཛོད་
Lieutenant: སྐུ་ཚབ་
Long title: ཧ་དབར་བདེ་ལིགསརྒྱ་ལ་བོ་ (seems to be run together with extra syllables at the end? Looks like misspelled "gyalpo"?)
ajang: འཇངས་
ajol: འཇོལ་

I can't vouch for whether these are correct Tibetan. Just transcribing from the images. I noticed that William Thweatt's versions are missing some of the tshegs (་).--Amble (talk) 22:22, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have a bad habit of leaving those out, especially when things are (to me) unambiguous. However, those pesky tshegs (the small "dot" that serves to separate syllables) are mandatory.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 02:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our Tibetan language articles only scratch the surface. But one thing I've noticed is that Old Tibetan and Classical Tibetan have impressive consonant clusters and no tones while Modern Standard Tibetan (based on the Lhassa dialect?) has simplified consonant clusters and has got tones. Have the tones arisen out of the simplification of consonant clusters? I mean, are the tones of Modern Tibetan what was left behind as the consonant clusters got simplified? Contact Basemetal here 03:00, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Tonogenesis occurred in Tibetan with the loss/simplification of onsets and codas. The manifestation of this, though, varies from dialect to dialect. Some dialects have contrastive phonemic tone, some are more in a pitch-register stage, some have a "tonal component" but tone doesn't contrast lexical meaning and some dialects completely lack any tonal component. Quick overview, a more comprehensive analysis, an interesting paper.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 04:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful -- thank you, everyone. That's been a great help. Henry ^Flower 05:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first paper is not a "quick overview", it's just truncated (not sure why SEAlang has these truncated versions of papers). The full version is here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

de:Tibetische Sprache#Lhasa-Dialekt (in German, but the lists and tables should be intelligible anyway) shows how you get from written Tibetan (which preserves the Old/Classical Tibetan consonant clusters graphically) to the pronunciation of the Lhasa dialect. Some western dialects (the Ladakhi–Balti–Purig group, especially Purig and Balti) preserve the Old Tibetan phonology fairly well. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Squirt

Does the word "squirt" for describing a child originate from the act of a man squirting semen into a woman? For example, "Bryan Adams was just a squirt in the Summer of '69" would imply that he was still a sperm at that point, even though he was older. 197.253.1.4 (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Only by distant analogy. The French equivalent is "morveux", meaning "one with a running nose". --Askedonty (talk) 10:11, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's more like "squirt" as opposed to a full spray. Think the squirt of a lemon as opposed to a water tap turned on full. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Harry Truman referred to the small-statured Joseph Stalin as "a little squirt", but I wouldn't say old Joe was ineffectual. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. Truman wasn't saying that Stalin was ineffectual. Truman deeply distrusted Stalin. That is one of the reasons that he ordered Hiroshima and Nagasaki atom-bombed, in order to end the war as quickly as possible, before Stalin ordered a Soviet invasion. FDR didn't distrust Stalin enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:24, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, Stalin did not have any capability to invade Japan. The logistics problems alone would have been staggering, not to mention the Soviet navy's lack of expertise and resources. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"a little bit of a squirt" Contact Basemetal here 16:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to find where that Truman quote comes from. From this (paragraph 7) it looks like something he said in one of the instalments of this TV series. Here is an medley of various things he said regarding Stalin in the course of that series. Unfortunately it does not contain the squirt quote. Contact Basemetal here 22:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I heard it on an audio book titled The Truman Tapes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:15, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I bet the "television series" they say this audio book is based on is the one I mentioned above. Contact Basemetal here 22:26, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very likely. I'll look for my copy when I get the chance. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Etymonline says it was first used for a whipper-snapper, i.e. a young person, in 1839. It gives no reason for it.

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

12:58, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A squirt is a boy who is too small to pee over the garden wall/fence. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:58, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very likely. I'll look for my copy when I get the chance. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's why he "pisseth against the wall". Contact Basemetal here 17:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What does that Biblical phrase mean ? StuRat (talk) 21:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC) [reply]

a male (heir) Contact Basemetal here 21:29, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What a colorful way to say "male". :-) StuRat (talk) 21:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC) [reply]

Not every translator likes to stay as colorful (and as close to the Hebrew) as the KJV. If you click on "Other Translations" for each passage at BibleGateway you'll get a whole bunch of different translations in a whole bunch of other English versions of the Bible. Contact Basemetal here 22:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it meant "males over a certain age", as male babies wouldn't be able to "piss against the wall". I also wonder why the translators chose the word "piss", versus "urinate", which comes from Latin and is considered the more refined choice. StuRat (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC) [reply]

Since my answer is too long and too off-topic I put it on Stu's page. Inviting people to Stu's place

BYOB though. Contact Basemetal here 17:21, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(In the 20th/21st century, not in the 17th. Languages, meanings, customs and sensibilities change.) It's not a bug, though; it's a feature. To riff on C. A. R. Hoare, the King James Bible was (well, in some ways, at least) not only an improvement on its predecessors, but also on nearly all of its successors. :-) Also, in the 17th century, urinate was not yet in (common) use and would, as a Latinism, not have been understandable, let alone familiar, to the general public, anyway, which would have defeated the purpose of the translation, namely popularisation and proselytism. Its goal was to make the Bible accessible to the unwashed masses, who had no education in classical languages. No wonder the KJV still has a lot of rabid fans – although they would not name the "dirty words" as a reason, I presume. ;-) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why would anyone want to pee over the wall? 86.141.140.204 (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To get to the other side? To show they're no squirt?

See pissing contest. Contact Basemetal here 18:52, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the example given, there was definitely a sexual double entendre, but it wasn't just about mansquirts, also female ejaculation. The author was playing with the concepts of the Summer of Love, 69 (sex position) and the I Know What You Did Last Summer soundtrack, where men and women both come together and get fucked up to music equally. Maybe more of a double double entendre (not to be conflated with Tim Horton's sweet creamy afternoon delight). InedibleHulk (talk) 21:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And yeah, I meant Bryan Adams was a kid, literally, not a sperm. Still twice as old as Brian Adams was, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of "pray the gay away"

I think the phrase "pray the gay away" is quite catchy. What is the origin of the phrase? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean who in particular originated it, or what does it mean? It refers to a generally discredited view that homosexuality was a spiritual disorder that could be cured by religion. It still exists. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know what it means. I just want to know who coined the phrase. In terms of usage, people that support gay rights seem to be the people to use it, not the people that oppose homosexuality and anything related to the gay. "You can't pray the gay away!" 71.79.234.132 (talk) 21:44, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The actual history of Conversion therapy goes back to Freud's day, but I'm fairly certain the phrases "Pray the gay away" or "Pray away the gay" started in the 1980s, thanks to clinical psychology realizing that classifying homosexuality as a mental disorder was a mistake, and the American Evangelicalism's growth in both popularity and worldliness.

I haven't found who actually coined the phrase yet, but I'm willing to bet it was thought up in the 1980s or 1990s, with the conscious intention of being catchy (because Jesus definitely taught "yea, blessed are the speakers of inauthentic but catchy Christio-advertising, for they can serve God and Mammon by filling the pews"). Ian.thomson (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest definite reference I can find (on a quick search) is to "Cartman Sucks" (2007), so Parker and Stone may have invented it. There was also a 2011 TV show of that title (Pray the Gay Away? - no question mark, no points). However, there may be earlier examples out there. Tevildo (talk) 21:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Malcolm in the Middle season 1, episode #9 "Lois vs. Evil" aired March 19, 2000 and contained the phrase "Pray away the gay": [2]. StuRat (talk) 03:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, catchy, like "The family that preys together slays together." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:35, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"The family that brays together strays together." Contact Basemetal here 22:17, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There was an advert on Aussie TV in the (??) 1960s-1970s for gray hair colour, with the slogan "Go gay with gray and stay that way". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:59, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing more 1960's than 1970's. In the 1960's "gay" hadn't yet taken on the "homosexual" meaning, for example, the Flintstones theme song said "We'll have a gay old time". By the 1970's that had changed, at least in the US. So, unless the change hit Aussie a bit later, it would have been quite a strange advertising choice to say "Go homosexual with gray and stay that way". StuRat (talk) 14:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I looked online before mentioning it, but could find no reference. My sense is that it was later than the 60s, because I'd have had no reason to remember it. It must have been when "gay" was starting to come into public awareness with its new meaning; until then, "camp" or "queer" were the usual words for that abomination. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall the ad being in colour, and we didn't get colour TV till March 1975. Btw, "go gay with gray" has apparently been in use since at least as early as 1951. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:47, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Aussie word I saw on Monty Python from that period for a gay man was "pooftah" (sp ?). Was that in use then ? Is it still ? Is it still derogatory or has it been "reclaimed" by the gay community ? StuRat (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC) [reply]

"Poofter" was in pretty wide circulation back then. It was always a word to reserve for an appropriate audience, and never very elevating. I never heard any man refer to himself that way. It's not much heard at all these days, and would certainly be considered derogatory now (as well as seriously dating the speaker). It survives in the expression "poofter-bashing", that rite of passage whereby young males go trawling beats in order to physically assault men who happen to be there, in the belief that this means that they, the perpetrators, are not that way and can be trusted among their uber-macho mates. The short form "poof", curiously, is much less pejorative, even endearing. OTOH, "gay" is now often used pejoratively, usually by school-age kids, and often of things that have no sexual or gender component at all ("These sandwiches Dad made me are so gay. I wish Mum'd come back so I get a better lunch"). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:58, 30 July 2015 (UTC) [reply]

"In terms of usage, people that support gay rights seem to be the people to use it, not the people that oppose homosexuality and anything related to the gay." Assuming that's true, and it's my sense that it is, it makes sense. The people doing the praying aren't likely to be so flip about it. It sounds like something that would come from people deriding the attempt to pray people straight. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, it wasn't coined from scratch. I remember, from decades ago, ads for a hair color product that promised to "wash the gray away". More rhymingly, I see products now that are pitched to "spray the gray away". —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 July 25

Contents