Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 July 13

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July 13

'count' is 'counting place'?

Does 'count' mean 'counting place' in the following sentence?

   Three weeks after polling day, by which time the overseas 
   and service votes had been returned, I went to the election 
   count at Sleaford.---Margaret Thatcher, The Path to Power, 
   p.46.

123.221.73.147 (talk) 03:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)dengen

I'd interpret "election count" as referring to an event, not a place. --72.78.149.18 (talk) 05:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

But an event that takes places at a certain place. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:38, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I think "went" is being used in the sense of "attend" as in "I went to Harvard" or "I went to the party". The idea isn't so much one of travelling to and arriving at a destination, but attending an event. "The election count" is a thing that is happening, like "a crab feed" or "the Wilson memorial (definition 2)". So I would interpret it as 72.78.149.18 has: she went to (attended) the election count (event, not place).--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 07:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

She still had to physically go to a specific place to witness the event. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, but in the example "I went to Harvard" you are not going to an event. If you go somewhere it may or may not be for the purpose of attending an event. In this case, Maggie went (presumably to Sleaford Town Hall) specifically to either participate in or observe the event. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 09:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who uses the verb "go" is going to a place, -- I can go on and on about this, without moving from my chair. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 11:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe not! This has to be the 1945 general election - the only one where the count was delayed because of the overseas service vote. Margaret Roberts did support the conservative candidate. However, the constituency was Grantham, and the count would probably have been in Grantham. There is an indication here - http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/100817 - that the conservative candidate (who didn't win the seat) had his electoral office in Sleaford - so it may be that Margaret went to help in that office on the day of the count, rather than actually being −present at the count itself. Wymspen (talk) 11:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know for sure where the count was held, but it's quite likely it was in Sleaford, as that was the headquarters of Kesteven County Council. Warofdreams talk 15:54, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Of course, a verb as basic as "go" combines with prepositions in true Germanic fashion to gain many additional meanings. It is also one of the "helper" verbs in the formation of tenses, e.g. "I am going to be more forceful about this". 86.168.123.201 (talk) 11:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

"like we did" vs "like what we did"

"like what we did" grates on me - as in "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door". A web search shows that it is very frequently used though, even on a Grammar blog. Are both constructs grammatically correct? If so is there a preference or some subtle nuance that I'm missing? -- Q Chris (talk) 14:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There are three possibilities which you may be confusing: He sang like what I did last week; this is wrong, because the first clause uses a verb, but no object, so "what" doesn't refer to anything; in the site which you link to, When it comes to exploiting text, it is like what we did last week about the ‘’bang bang’’ song. is correct because the the "what" is referring to the thing that we did last week (the sentence would not work without the "what"). Your own example is somewhere in the middle; "what" could be taken to refer to the job, which would be fine, or to the doing the job, which would not. Henry^Flower 16:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

It's very similar to the "than what" misconstruction often heard in these parts. Djokovic was beaten by an unseeded player - "Yes, but he's still a better player than what that other guy is". The "what" is superfluous. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

In plain, ungrating Merickan, "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is "We'll do a neat job, just like that which we did next door". But the original "We'll do a neat job, just like what we did next door" is proper (Southren) Appalachian. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with "like what we did". "What we did" is a noun clause, as you can see in constructions like "What we did was to solve the problem" where it is the subject of the verb. "Like" is a preposition, so a noun clause can be its object. On the other hand, "like we did" is a disputed usage. Here "like" is being used as a conjunction, and traditionalists would say that this is not correct and you have to say "as we did". (I am not one of them.) --69.159.60.163 (talk) 04:15, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

The word "like" means "similar to". I don't see anything wrong with the construction "similar to what we did ", but "similar to we did" sounds sloppy. "As we did" is what one would expect to see, however Chambers Dictionary notes that use of "like" to mean "as" or "as if" is Shakespearean and now non - standard. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

"Like" means "similar to" when it is a preposition. When used to mean "as", it is a conjunction. --69.159.60.163 (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Japanese translation help

Resolved

 – 19:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello. I need to know if タイニーエレファントパレード translates to any of the song titles in Ska Para Toujou; track listing here:[1]. I know that it translates to something like "Tiny Elephant Parade", as an approximation of "Baby Elephant Walk" -- but some of the track titles aren't in English. Thanks, --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A073:98E5:BA6B:E905 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Update: according to Google translate, none of the titles are even vaguely similar; therefore, I'll remove said entry from article. If somebody with experience with Japanese disagrees, feel free to undo my deletion. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:3994:3C44:6154:DBD2 (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

It says "Tiny Elephant Parade", spelled out in Katakana, in a close approximation to English - the same way that an English name such as "McDonalds" is written as "Ma-Ku-Do-Na-Ru-Do" - マクドナルド

It's literally "Ta-I-Nii-E-Re-Fa-N-To-Pa-Re-Do"

81.168.94.85 (talk) 14:37, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Or, since we don't usually hyphenate and capitalize every syllable in romanizing Japanese, tainīerefantoparēdo. —Tamfang (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

The track "Baby Elephant Walk" is called 子象の行進 (or in Katakana, ベイビー・エレファント・ウォーク - literally Baby Elephant Walk). However, that Japanese article, in the section on cover-versions, says that the Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra did a cover version of it on an album in 1990 where it was called "March of baby elephant (Tiny Elephant Parade)" - the first part being a rough translation, the second part is spelled out in Katakana. This part;

また、東京スカパラダイスオーケストラが、1990年のアルバム、「スカパラ登場」で「仔象の行進（タイニー・エレファント・パレード）」としてカバーした。

Rougly, "Additionally, the Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra, on the 1990 album ja:スカパラ登場 ("Sukapara appearance" - I don't know what that really means) - covered it ona track called "march of young elephant (Tiny Elephant Parade)".

81.168.94.85 (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

If I follow, Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra covered the song, but not on the Ska Para Toujou album, correct? For now, I'll just undo my deletion. (unless you'd like to try and tackle this). --OP, dynamic IP:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A99B:8185:FE40:CECC (talk) 02:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

This thread is confusing me, but Ska Para Toujou is what 81.168.94.85 translated as "Sukapara appearance". Toujou in this context is probably better translated as "debut". It's their first album. Mancini's "Baby Elephant Walk" (as kozō no kōshin: kozō=elephant child, no='s, kōshin=march/parade) is track #4 of that album according to the jawiki article on the album. "Kozou No Kousin", from your first link, is a variant romanization of the same Japanese title. According to the jawiki article on the Mancini song, they covered that song on that album under the name "kozō no kōshin (tainī erefanto parēdo)". Probably that is the full title+subtitle of the track. Why they re-translated the title to English instead of using the original English title is beyond me. -- BenRG (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for clarifying. Since Japan WP is not a suitable source for citation, I'll just leave the entry there, with cn tag. --OP:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:A99B:8185:FE40:CECC (talk) 19:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Keeanga? Yamahtta?

In what language are the two words/names (Keeanga, Yamahtta) in the title either native, or meaningful?

From what language or languages have they been transcribed?

Is there an on-line dictionary for this language or these languages, given I only have dictionaries for Hausa and isiZulu, which exclude these words. FYI, I am semi-proficient in isiZulu and a native English speaker. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Having worked in the Congo, and knowing how most African languages were written down phonetically using the Latin alphabet, I would expect to see Kianga, or Nkianga - but not the -ee-. Yamahtta looks more Japanese - though I am familiar with Nyama as a good African word. I have also observed a tendency among African-Americans to adopt African sounding names, which do not always come from one particular African language, and sometimes have rather idiosyncratic spellings (which matches the other American tradition of taking traditional European names and messing about with the spelling). Wymspen (talk) 08:17, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Not to mention the tradition of messing about with Native names. The British Empire, having made a mess of American and Indian names, got its act together in the Scramble for Africa and adopted a systematic approach to spelling! —Tamfang (talk) 05:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

"Yamada" is a common Japanese family name, like Smith. And like Smyth, it can be transliterated in different ways. So it probably stems from that. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

• A websearch will quickly show that these two words, as spelled, are the forenames of a living person. Medeis assures me that this datum is irrelevant in context and Medeis is an honorable entity. —Tamfang (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I don't mind people being aware of that fact, Redbeard, but it is the names themselves which interest me, and that person should not be dragged in to this. I once met a Nepalese taxi driver, and asked him if he missed Nepal. I deduced this solely from his name (which is on the license in NYC, and was obviously Indic) and by his appearance. He was shocked and told me I was "wise and learnèd", but I think he was moreso than I. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

If not for what I know about the bearer, I would not dismiss the possibility of a misspelling from Japanese. —Tamfang (talk) 05:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)