Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 March 30

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March 30

Help understanding a Scottish joke

Tommy Sheridan [Scottish politician imprisoned for perjury a few years back] represented himself at his trial. On getting home one day, he realised he had left his bag in the courtroom.

"You go back and get your bag and I'll get the tea on", says Gail.

Tommy gets to the courtroom which is empty apart from a woman carrying out the cleaning.

"I'm here for my holdall", explains Tommy.

"Ach, Tommy son. Don't ye think yer in enough trouble already?"

Would anyone mind ruining the joke by explaining to me? It's left me completely stumped. Does "my holdall" sound like something else in a Scottish accent? --87.224.68.42 (talk) 10:16, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I think there is nothing Scottish here. Maybe it is too subtly humorous but nothing more. I was puzzled half a minute but then got it without having checked any Scottish slang dictionary (you do not need it here, in fact, all the words are of Standard English). The cleaner said "You are already in a trouble, so why are you making more troubles for yourself, isn't it enough?". I'm not sure if I have explained, but the joke indeed is too subtle and difficult to explain in words.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

As a native BrEnglish speaker, that explanation makes no sense to me, because collecting an item one owns is not in itself inviting any more trouble. Having said that, I lived in Scotland for eight years, and the joke eludes me too. The only thing I can think of is a very strained pun on holdall = "hole doll", a possible reference to an 'inflatable woman' sex doll, though not an expression I've ever come across. Hopefully someone in on the joke will come along soon and put us all out of our misery. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Is it because the perjury case was about him being a swinger, allegedly, so him wanting to "hold all" is a not very funny and not too obvious reference to an orgy? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:53, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I can only think that the joke is that the cleaner thinks that Sheridan has taken a bung and is expecting a holdall full of cash as part of the deal that got him freed. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:21, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

This is an alternative version, which casts some light on this: Tommy Sheridan left his bag in the court on Thursday and didn't realise his loss until he was back at Chateau Sheridan. While his chef prepared dinner and the maid set the table, Comrade Tommy got the chauffeur to drive him back to court. It was closed but after a never give up battering of the door, the cleaning lady appears and opens the door. Comrade Tommy says to her; 'I've come fur ma holdall.' 'Och Tommy' she says bashfully. 'Huz yer cock no got ye intae enough trouble awready?' 217.44.50.87 (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I've come for my hole, doll" means "I've come for sexual intercourse, dear"86.155.116.104 (talk) 17:23, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this is it. See e.g. here. Henry^Flower 19:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

But that's hardly just Scottish, is it? Am more disappointed there's no doll in that list. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If I (English) say "holdall" and "hole doll" they will sound quite distinct - but in a strong Glaswegian accent I suspect there is little or no distinction. 217.44.50.87 (talk) 10:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Q: "What's the difference between Walt Disney and Tommy Sheridan"?

A: "Tommy has courtroom sex with luggage, but Walt disnay."

Martinevans123 (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC) ... did I get that right??

Polite/formal term for people who are considerably older than you

I'm talking about people with colorless hair and wrinkles. What's the best way to label this population?

• senior citizen
• old people
• older people
• mature adult (though, I'm not sure if this exclusively refers to people with graying hair and wrinkles or anybody that looks like an adult or anybody that looks and acts like responsible adults)
• elder
• geriatric population

These terms seem to be about people who are older than you in years, unless you are part of the population. Are there terms that are based on perception of agedness? If a 20-year-old starts to have receding hairline (which actually can happen, as I've seen it on an acquaintance who always wears a baseball cap to hide or disguise the loss of hair), and as a result appears much older than his peers, is there a term for people who just look older than other people his age? I'm just wondering, because some cultures would use the perception of agedness to use different terms to indicate respect. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 11:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

In everyday BrE, "the elderly" is the usual term for actually old people (and "OAPs", for Old Age Pensioners, is falling out of fashion), but other expressions might be used by specialist professions or disciplines depending on context. Someone who looks significantly older than might be expected might be called "prematurely aged". I'm not aware of a term applicable to all "old-looking" people regardless of their actual ages, and the linked article does not seem to include one, but might anyway be of general help. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with an AmE term for "old looking" people either. And I agree that what term is used would depend on context. A news show here in the States may use "elderly" or "senior citizens" but in casual conversation a person might just refer to an old person as an "old lady/man". In medical contexts, the word geriatric is often used as in "I work with geriatric patients". Dismas|^(talk) 13:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

"Geriatric" suggests that the person is suffering from a medical condition associated with age. "Senior citizen" suggests that the person is above a specific age where they qualify for some discounts or government benefits (typically 65 in North America, but may be different elsewhere). Otherwise I think the best choice depends on context. --69.159.61.172 (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

This BrEng speaker was taught never to refer to "the elderly", or "the disabled", as the use of "the" dehumanises. Political correctness gone mad? Maybe, but it's not that difficult to say "elderly people". --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

@Dweller - The explanation I'm familiar with (from a disability rights POV) for that "rule" is that using an adjective "disabled/elderly" as a noun is frowned upon. The idea is that the adjective should not be used in place of the actual noun - "person/people/man/woman/child". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

This seems to be a common argument now. (For example, I assume it's why what was once the "Royal National Institute for the Blind" is now the Royal National Institute of Blind People.) Is there a logical defence of this position out there? At first glance it strikes me as rather silly - "the [adjective]" is a common way of describing a group of people who could all be described as [adjective] (the rich, the poor, the British, the French, the quick and the dead, etc.), and I can't see any negative or "dehumanising" connotation to it. Proteus (Talk) 11:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

"Mature adult" is definitely wrong; it's too vague. Arguably, you're "mature" not that long after puberty. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

It's usually not considered polite to refer to an older person's age at all. Of course, it's sometimes necessary, such as for identification purposes. In some cases, an estimate of their actual age would be used, such as by police. StuRat (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

The OP's question referred to seeking a term for a defined population, rather than to refer to an individual. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:17, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

You can ask the Elder Wisdom Circle at http://www.elderwisdomcircle.org. See also http://sandiegobees.com/goaskgrandpa/.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

"Senior citizen" is good. Or just "senior". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

infusions

"The bar features a dozen cocktails and infusions." I have no idea what infusions are. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.213.117 (talk) 15:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

An infusion is a type of flavored spirit, similar to a cordial or a liqueur. See here. The difference between a cocktail and an infusion:

• with an infusion, you add something (typically fruit and/or herbs) to a spirit (commonly vodka, but any spirit would work) and allow the alcohol to extract flavors from the added ingredient. You then strain the added ingredients out, resulting in a liquid spirit that just has the essence or flavor of the added ingredients, but not the ingredients themselves. This is similar to the way tinctures and extract is made.
• a cocktail is a mixture of one or more spirits with one or more other ingredients, often also called a "mixed drink".

Thus an infusion, when consumed "straight", is not itself considered a cocktail, which is a mixed drink. The spirits in a cocktail may also themselves infusions. For example:

• Galliano (liqueur) is an infusion of several bitter herbs in neutral spirits.
• A Harvey Wallbanger is a cocktail that include Galliano as an ingredient, mixed with Vodka and Orange Juice.

Cocktails are thus mixed by the bar tender for the consumer. Infusions are prepared ahead of time and may be consumed straight, or mixed into a cocktail. Hope that helps. --Jayron32 16:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

By contrast, a muddled drink still contains bits of the fruit, herbs, and spices. StuRat (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

To clarify this, an infusion is not just an alcoholic drink. Anything made by allowing chemicals of some kind to pass from some solid into a liquid in which that solid is immersed is an infusion. That could be in alcohol, or in water, or even in other liquids (though not for drinking). The aim could be to obtain flavour, or colour, or something of medicinal value. A cup of tea is an infusion! 217.44.50.87 (talk) 15:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The medical use of the term seems a bit different, since in an intravenous infusion, the solution isn't normally made by steeping or soaking a solid in the liquid to form the solution. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Just to explain something about language: many collections of sounds have different meanings depending on context. The word "infusion" means different things depending on what context it is said in. While it is true what both 217.44 and StuRat have said about the word "infusion" in the contexts THEY have put it in, the context of the OP is that of alcoholic drinks, and that definition does not include the other contexts. If anyone would like to learn more about how a word can have different definitions in different contexts, the concept of semantic overload is relevant. --Jayron32 11:54, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Is the word I'm looking for "obfuscate"?

I maintain my town's web site and with that they have email addresses for town officials. When someone leaves a post, the emails have to be kept as part of the official record but the person shouldn't have access to the account anymore. So, I can reset the password to something random and if we ever need those emails again, can reset it again to something I'll actually remember. Is there a word for this sort of obfuscation of the password? Is "obfuscate" actually the right word in this case? Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 23:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I think "resetting the password" is the right word in both cases (to something random in the first case, and to something memorable in the second case). --51.9.188.81 (talk) 23:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You might say "randomize the password", since "resetting" it might just be to something simple like "12345", so the user can log in and change it again. StuRat (talk) 00:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

it would be an odd word to use if you're considering using it in an office memo describing the process..68.48.241.158 (talk) 00:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I had considered the phrases "reset the password" or "randomize the password" but was thinking that a word like obfuscate would apply as well. Ah well. And no, it's not in an office memo. The town is only about 1400 residents, so it's all pretty relaxed and un-officelike. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 02:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

If you really want to freak out your coworkers, you could say you "changed to an occult password", here using the original meaning of wikt:occult, which is secret or hidden. StuRat (talk)

'Obfuscate' usually means to use less-well known terms to hide the meaning of something. "Eschew obfuscation" is an ironic example. Randomizing the password goes a bit beyond that. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

wikt:obliviate ("to cause smth. to be forgotten") may be of interest to Dismas; but using this term in his text may in itself be obfuscation. --51.9.188.81 (talk) 05:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

You could say you've "secured" the email account. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:31, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

In data erasure, burying something in (pseudo)random gibberish to make it unreadable is called "overwriting". I'd go with that, but then again, I call shutting down my laptop "disabling the mainframe". A true geek might disapprove. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC)