Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 November 14

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November 14

written language as part of the native competence

Is our literacy in our native language also part of the native competence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.138.82 (talk) 00:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm not even sure what this question means. What is 'the native competence'? AlexTiefling (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I assume it means linguistic competence.Llaanngg (talk) 18:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how it could be - people can be perfectly competent in languages which do not even have a written version. Wymspen (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe the question could be construed as "is literacy necessary to be a native speaker?" It seems more like "Can we draw a line between native and non-natives writers, in the same way we can spot a non-native speaker by his accent?"--Llaanngg (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Indeed I mean whether everything that applies to the native ability to speak a language also apply to the ability to write a language. For example do we have to learn it before a critical phase like puberty to be considered native, do non natives have some sort of "accent"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.0.88.77 (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• No, literacy is explicitly not considered necessary for competence of a spoken native tongue. I have read that many times, but can't recall a source off hand, the point is considered so basic in linguistics. Given spoken language is at least 75kya, and most of the worlds languages have not even had a pretense at a written form until the last several millennia, it would be absurd then to conclude that competence requires writing.

μηδείς (talk) 04:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

μηδείς : You did not get the point of the question.

The question was more if the ability to write our native language is localized in the same region of the brain as our native ability to speak it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.252.178.88 (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I got the point of the question you asked perfectly, Raymond Luxury Yacht and gave the standard answer. It's hardly my failing not to have gotten a point you in no way made. You might also avoid addressing people by their user pages. μηδείς (talk) 04:44, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be a question for the Science reference desk? Bus stop (talk) 17:18, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Controversies about the word "niggardly"

Are there other words that do not have a racist meaning, but sound like a racist epithet? Like "snigger" or "renege". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Llaanngg (talk • contribs) 00:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

The word "negro", which was the acceptable word in the 1960s, could easily be mispronounced as "nigra", especially with a Southern accent. Coleman Young once accused someone of doing that to him. StuRat (talk) 01:12, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Niggle has provoked some discussion. Wymspen (talk) 09:40, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

My brain fail. Move on, nothing to see here. Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Schwarzenegger means "black nigger". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC) ?! Per Schwarzenegger (surname): Schwarzenegger is a German surname that means person from Schwarzenegg, which is both a village in Switzerland (currently split between the municipalities of Unterlangenegg and Oberlangenegg) and a place in Land Salzburg in Austria. "Schwarzen" means "black", and "egg" (from the same root as the German word "ecke" for "corner") refers to a ridge, e.g., Eggli (long ridge), Eggiman (lives on a ridge), and Eggler (farms on a ridge). -- ToE 03:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC) OOps. Sorry. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC) Your bringing this up has value. I had heard that story too. It's good to put it to rest. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

It's been suggest that that's why in America "snicker" seems to have overtaken "snigger" (in the UK "snigger" remains the standard). Smurrayinchester 09:44, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Here is a forum discussion, which also mentions the words "renege" and "snigger". Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:55, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Hence a racist comment during the 2012 election saying "don't renege". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Aren't we overthinking this? Hispanics refer to the pt:Rio Negro with no problems. 92.8.63.27 (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Pronounced differently. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

As asked, the answer to the question is: yes, lots. That is, there are many words with multiple meanings and some of those include words that can sometimes be used as offensive racial epithets. Would you tell a Spanish persons that their kitchen looked Spic and Span? (the article is on the cleanser, but discusses the phrase - see also here) There are any number of other words that might trigger a raised eyebrow (slope, chink, gook (though the pronunciations are sometimes different), etc.) Matt Deres (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

For what it worth, the word "nigger" ("niggaz", "nigga" etc.) is widely used in American hip hop without any intended offence, in a friendly manner, most notably by Tupac Shakur perhaps. Brandmeister^talk 16:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

It would seem that at least one of his "friends" didn't get the message. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:15, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

For what it's worth: Nigger, Nigga, and Nigger (disambiguation). At least the first of these is moderately well-referenced. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

• EO gives snicker as the original term, attested earlier than the variant snigger. Assuming the "British" variant of a word to be the original form is a good way to go astray.

There's not much difference. The OED cites "snicker" back to 1694 and "snigger" to 1706. It's possible that they both derive from the older Scottish word "nicker" and even older Irish "neicher" (the neigh of a horse or donkey). Dbfirs 21:05, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

This is a function of the sensibility of the target audience. Any inherent similarities between words and their corresponding racial epithets are moderated by the receptivity of a sensitive audience to detecting the slur in addition to the innocuous term. But this is not to say that the speaker is off the hook. In all cases there is standard English which replaces potentially problematic language in accordance with an unwritten social contract. The excuse that the language is legitimate does not change the fact in a community all people have their sensitivities and that we aim to avoid provoking those sensitivities. Bus stop (talk) 15:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

We have an article on this: Controversies about the word "niggardly". See also Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 April 6#Does the word "niggard" have to die? 90.196.176.27 (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Verb and sound of reloading weapon

In common English parlance, what's the verb and sound associated with reloading a shotgun (when an empty round falls off) and also other weapons in film, when someone is about to shoot from an aimed gun? Thanks.--93.174.25.12 (talk) 16:00, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Sound: "kerchink" ? StuRat (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

some people claim that kkk might be this.Llaanngg (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

According to this site, "Schklikt" is a suitable combination of letters. Sourced to "Gus", who is doubtless in a position to make authoritative statements on the issue. Tevildo (talk) 21:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean "racking" and/or "cocking"? (Operating the slide or pump to feed the round into the chamber, and setting the hammer into the ready position, respectively). Or do you just want an word to represent the sound? If that, the Doom Comic offers CHUK-CLIK! (inevitably followed by a BLAMM!). Iapetus (talk) 22:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the sound itself, Onomatopoeia provides ample opportunity for creating new words, should a suitable one not already exist. --Jayron32 12:53, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

What does "plain" mean in this context?

Last account on this page: http://www.rinkworks.com/said/restaurants.shtml Customer goes into a sandwich shop and asks for "a plain number three, white, end piece preferred, no cheese. And BBQ chips. To go". The clerk doesn't know what "plain" means in this context, and confusion reigns. Whoever wrote the account clearly thinks that the meaning should be obvious - but I have no idea what he's talking about either. Can anyone enlighten me? Iapetus (talk) 22:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

From the passage

Clerk: "What kind of cheese?"

Me: "That's plain."

Clerk: "What kind of cheese do you want on it?"

Me: "I want it plain, please."

I'd say "plain" means "no cheese". Loraof (talk) 22:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

But in the initial request, he said "plain" and "no cheese". So it presumably implies no cheese, but more than that as well.Iapetus (talk) 22:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Might it be an example of Redundancy (linguistics)? Or - thinking in more gustatory terms (and why do we not have a Refdesk/Food?) - do we know what sandwich number 3 is? I could well imagine a scenario where "plain" means, without any of those sauces and salads that are ranged behind the counter. Plain pizza is contrasted with all-dressed. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Wow, is Rinkworks still going? It must be 25 years old if it's a day... Tevildo (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

A plain bread roll appears to be one without seeds or anything else as a topping. I read the whole conversation, and ended up with the imprression that he just wanted a white bread roll, buttered, with a serving of fries. What we would call a chip butty in the UK. Wymspen (talk) 15:00, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I would take, at a sandwich shop, "plain" to mean "no condiments", that is, without mustard, mayo, dressing, etc. Just the cold cuts. --Jayron32 17:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm also reminded of the diner scene from Five Easy Pieces. --Jayron32 17:19, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• My2 cents: First plain means, 'I already told you' - second plain, means 'really, no cheese' Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

To me, plain means unbuttered. Akld guy (talk) 20:13, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

The typical burger joint has hamburgers and cheeseburgers. If you ask for a cheeseburger and specify no cheese, they might think you're addled. But if it's a build-your-own kind of place, you'd be best off specifying exactly what you want. Like a "plain" hamburger: Bread and meat and nothing else. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:46, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

But we're not talking about hamburgers. The question is about a sandwich. Akld guy (talk) 01:29, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Same rule applies: When in doubt, spell it out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:30, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Drive-Thru Bus stop (talk) 21:09, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

It's clear from the above that "plain" is quite ambiguous, and more information would be required from the customer. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

At the Subway sandwich shop I go to, ordering "with everything" doesn't include jalapenos, so I must ask for "everything, and in addition to everything, jalapenos". Logically, therefore, jalapenos must exist outside the universe. StuRat (talk) 02:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, you can't have everything. After all, where would you keep it? --Jayron32 03:34, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps at the Hotel de l'Univers et du Portugal. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:57, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• I have discussed this here before. I used to frequent a now-closed Wendy's where I ordered plain hamburgers. I find there artificially colored cheese disgusting, and wanted no other topping. The staff inevitably gave me cheeseburgers without lettuce and tomato, but with cheese. The first time I complained they actually scraped these cheese off, and handed the burger back to me. The next time, I ordered in Spanish (the staff was 100% Hispanic) "Quiero una burgesa, sin queso, sin nada; solo pan y carne" (I want a hamburger without cheese, without anything; just bread and meat.) I opened the bag at the counter, the manager asked me to step aside, and I told him I ordered the burger without cheese and wanted to make sure they order was right. It had cheese.

I pealed this off by hand, and he became upset, telling me that food that had been handled by the customer could not go back in the kitchen. I told him that was the point: I wanted a new hamburger, not a refurbished one. This pissed him off, yet I was the one spending 45 minutes of my lunch hour only to have to save my lunch to eat for dinner. In any case, the lesson was that no amount of clarity is infinitely effective. But I did get told that when I came in in the future I was to skip the line and ask for the manager directly. μηδείς (talk) 04:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

The question remains why you went back to that restaurant even a second time. I do not feel obliged to give my money to businesses that so obviously don't want it. --Jayron32 11:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I can think of two reasons:

• The staff was "100% Hispanic". Medeis may have found that congenial.

• Staff made it clear that the manager would make sure she got the very best service, so no arguing with the staff who, in many restaurants, seem to be poorly trained. 92.8.63.27 (talk) 12:42, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe Medeis is more than capable of answering for herself. --Jayron32 12:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Another possibility is that this was her only choice (or that the others are even worse). When you have limited time for lunch you can't go far and still have time to eat, especially in heavy traffic. StuRat (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Why did I go back? Simple. I love Wendy's hamburgers, and it was within walking distance of my job at the WTC. The prices were reasonable compared to what you would pay otherwise. That the staff was ~100% hispanic was of no real importance except to explain why I ordered "solo pan y carne". (I have had the same a-plain-hamburger-is-a-cheeseburger problem at every other Wendy's I have frequented, regardless of the staff.) Once I came to an arrangement to the manager, it was like getting concierge service, since I did not have to wait in the queue for 10-15 minutes during rush, but could go straight to the pick-up counter. μηδείς (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Wendy's does have one advantage. While at McD's or BK you have to guess at whether eating their food regularly will necessitate a single, double, or triple bypass; Wendy's is kind enough to label their burgers accordingly. StuRat (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Are Americans unfamiliar with the packed lunch? DuncanHill (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

"Brown-bagging it" is still common. But getting away during lunch can provide a better break than eating in the lunchroom or at your desk. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:35, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

In Britain we are allowed to take our packed lunches outside to eat them. I had no idea that in the Land of the Free one could only leave ones desk if driving to a burger bar. DuncanHill (talk) 00:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Many people eat their lunches out of doors, weather permitting. Lots of companies have picnic tables and the like on their grounds. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:24, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

It can be dangerous in the USA eating in the out-of-doors due to woolly mammoths and giant bison. Bus stop (talk) 01:46, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

There are very few of those creatures around anymore. Most of them were turned into burgers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:50, 17 November 2016 (UTC)