Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 November 24

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 24

Oaths

In older literature (e.g. 19th century) it is common to read that somebody said something "with an oath", presumably because it would have been profane, or offended readers' sensibilities, to include the actual words. But would the implied oath usually have been something like "by God!", or an actual four-letter swear word? Equinox ◑ 05:18, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

"...by God" is a swear word, FYI, and among the four-letter words you're probably thinking of, many or most aren't. Nyttend (talk) 12:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

"...by God" and "Oh my God" and such are Oaths, which often defy the Commandment about taking God's name "in vain". Obscenities are treated like "oaths" but they aren't - they're just vulgarisms, some of which are still considered too offensive for regular television. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:04, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

*unattested term

Here's a silly example that I've just now made up:

Modern frindle derives from OE kenning friþ dol (i.e. a boring object so trivial that it could not produce conflict), with ME *friddul seemingly representing an intermediate stage before the presumedly intentional introduction of the n by proponents desirous of breaking the peaceful object's "dull" associations.

What's the origin of the use of the asterisk before unattested terms? Nyttend (talk) 12:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

It seems to be discussed here. It's in Italian, but there's a short abstract in English. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Alternative words/phrases for 'amenities' and 'facilities'

I have searched several thesauri for synonyms for 'amenities' and 'facilities' that do not sound so utilitarian or functional. I usually need to use 'amenities' or 'facilities' when describing the attributes of a hotel or village resort which is usually some combination of a swimming pool, spa, gym, restaurant, café and bar. I am writing in the UK for a British audience.

I realise it might be tricky to offer specific references, but are there better/nicer/prettier nouns any editors have encountered that I could use when referring to the leisure provisions of a hotel or resort?

Thank you. 217.33.150.21 (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Why call them anything - "The hotel has a pool. spa, etc." Wymspen (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

feature, element, luxury, convenience, comfort, service, asset, benefit, resource, extra, appurtenance jnestorius^(talk) 17:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Or Hotel "Advanced search" for various websites with checkboxes for pool, spa, gym, etc; do they have an overall label? The few I checked either have "amenities" or no overall label. jnestorius^(talk) 17:57, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

appointment; as in 'Fully appointed'. This is rather common in New Zealand motel usage. Akld guy (talk) 05:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Scientific research about foreign language teaching and learning

What are some serious sources for Scientific research about foreign language teaching and learning? I'd like to find research about time that adults need to learn a language, how to reduce a foreign accent, common pitfalls, and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.43.133.38 (talk) 15:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Our article Second-language acquisition may help. Loraof (talk) 16:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Also Language education. Loraof (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

These are useful as a roadmap. But I would like to know too what textbooks and handbooks after stances standard or comprehensive. Also what peer reviewed magazine would be worth taking a look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.7.33.34 (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Both of them (especially the first) have very extensive bibliographies at the bottom. Loraof (talk) 19:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Tsadi or Tsadik in Yiddish

So, here in Israel, most Israeli's can't tell you whether the 18th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is called Tsadi or "Tsadik". The Hebrew Alphabet page claims that

The letter is known as "tsadik" in Yiddish, and Hebrew speakers often give it that name as well.

But the Yiddish Wikipedia page is unclear. In the chart at the top, it's called "צדי" (Tsadi), and later on, it's called "צדיק" (Tsadik). Is it true that it's always called "Tsadik" in Yiddish? Tewner (talk) 16:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

On the Tsadi page here in the English Wikipedia, I've corrected the first part of the line you cite above, to read: "The letter is named "tsadek" in Yiddish..." (new text italicized here for emphasis) with a citation from a reliable source, Uriel Weinreich's bilingual Yiddish/English dictionary. This is the prescriptive reply; the page notes descriptively that in practice, speakers of either Yiddish or Hebrew may refer to the letter's name as tsadik, like the Hebrew word for a pious/saintly man (this definition also from Weinrich). That is, 100% adherence to the prescriptive form is unlikely. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "gestation", as in pregnancy

I looked it up in the OED and found fascinating archaic senses (e.g. to be rowed in a boat, to wear a ring) but, as I expected, only one pronunciation, /dʒɛˈsteɪʃən/. I recently heard a very well educated Englishwoman repeatedly pronounce it with a hard G. (I jest not.) Is this pronunciation attested in any dialect, or only her own idiolect? (I ask not for guesses - I seek evidence.) Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Not in any dialect I've ever heard here in the north of England. ( I hope she doesn't pronounce "digest" with a hard G, especially when she has guests.) I won't make any guesses, since you don't want them, but I observe from the same dictionary that the only such words pronounced with a hard G are those from German. Dbfirs 21:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I went to http://www.onelook.com and looked in Merriam-Webster, Oxford (not the full OED, but whatever version that OED accesses), American Heritage, Collins, and Macmillan. All agreed that the G is soft. However, Collins does show a hard G for the related words "gestational" and "gestatory". I wonder if this might be an error: American Heritage shows both with a short G, and none of the others lists "gestatory" at all. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Which Collins are you looking at? Their on-line dictionary shows only a soft G for both "gestational" and "gestatory". The modern sense of gestatory (/dʒɛˈsteɪtərɪ/) was added to the full OED in 1993, but the obsolete senses also had a soft G. Dbfirs 23:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I linked to the same Collins page you did! But I was misled by their confusing notation. Since the pronunciations "(dʒɛˈsteɪʃən)" and "(ˈdʒɛstətɪv)" are enclosed in parentheses, and since "(gesˈtational)" shows pronunciation information (the accent mark) and is in parentheses, I misread the "g" in "(gesˈtational)" as an IPA "ɡ" indicating a hard G, without noticing that the rest of the word is not given in IPA. At least I was right that there was an error, only it was mine. Sorry. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 06:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

That's OK. I thought you perhaps had a paper copy of Collins. I was sure that only "gest" words from German have a hard G. Dbfirs 07:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Both the full OED and Chambers 20th Century Dictionary have the g as soft. That said, while I doubt I've ever heard it said with a hard g, it wouldn't surprise me if I did. DuncanHill (talk) 23:14, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I checked the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary 2nd edition, which often shows uncommon or disparaged pronunciations. It only has soft G for all gestat- words. jnestorius^(talk) 23:29, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• A lot of time this happens when one has only ever read a word (such as the bizarre gunwale, forecastle, victuals and Beauchamp) and not heard it pronounced. That happens to me on the rare occasion. Interestingly enough, Pat and Vanna were discussing giblets at the end of Wheel tonight, and Pat said he said jiblets while Vanna admitted she said ghiblets. They agreed it was a dialectal difference. I have never heard her hard-gee pronunciation before. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I've never heard the name Beauchamp pronounced, so I would have used the French pronunciation if you hadn't warned me. (Thank you!)
A hard G in "giblet" would probably be considered non-standard in the UK, but Merriam-Webster.com gives it as an alternative in America. I wonder which regions use the hard G. Dbfirs 07:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@Dbfirs: Vanna White has the remains of a Southern accent, and when Pat Sajak suggested the hard gee might be "a Southern thing" she responded that she guessed so. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. There are not many people of German background in the Deep South, so my German theory doesn't work for "giblet". (I only intended it to apply to "gest..." words.) Dbfirs 23:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

A check of the Oxford English Dictionary confirms that it's not Germanic origin which makes the "g" hard - cf. "geld". It probably depends on whether the "g" softened in Latin. In some cases it's a matter of choice - would you know whether "Egerton" is pronounced with a hard or soft "g"? Examples are "gib", "gibber" and "gimbal". On "gibbous" the dictionary notes

The gutteral (g) in this and the related words is contrary to the ordinary rule for the pronunciation of Latin derivatives, but there is no evidence that (dz) was ever used.

I was surprised to learn that "giblets" has soft "g". "Gill" has various derivations and meanings and the pronunciation is linked to the meaning. On "gip", the dictionary says the pronunciation is hard and other dictionaries are wrong. 86.169.56.237 (talk) 11:54, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

It's only the verb "gip" that has a hard G, and the OED makes that claim for the Whitby dialect. The noun has a soft G in the OED. (I've clarified my previously ambiguous comment above. I was referring only to "gest..." words when I mentioned Germanic origin.) Dbfirs 00:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• I watched Kim Novak in Bell, Book and Candle the other night, and her character's name is Gillian Holroyd, pronounced with a hard gee, which surprised me, since I have only ever heard "Jillian". Camille Paglia and I highly recommend that movie. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard the hard-G Gillian a few times. I once had a boss named soft-G Gillian, and nothing could ever get under her skin more than being addressed as hard-G Gillian. She seemed to get called this on a regular basis, so the hard-G version must have a foothold in the popular psyche.

I have a friend who's been married twice, both times to soft-G Gillians; and one of his children from his first marriage is a soft-G Gillain, just for a bit of variety. I'm going to Gillain's wedding in January, where I expect to meet first wife Gillian, as well as continue my association with second wife Gillian. How confusing! -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:50, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

So the daughter's name is said Jillane? I had a boss named Julane, pronounced Jillane with the high mid schwi. μηδείς (talk) 04:36, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, like Jillane. Except, she gets called Jilly. As do both his wives. I can usually work out to whom he's referring ... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:19, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

See also Gillian Welch, "pronounced with a hard g". Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Didn't she confuse it with gustation? Both could potentially be pronounced with a schwa in the first syllable. Although it's weird, but people have been always confusing dozens of words (there's a term for such words: paronyms).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:34, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

If anyone ever confuses gustation with gestation, I would not want to meet her children nor eat a dinner prepared by her. - Nunh-huh 10:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

"Eating people new-born babies is wrong", but if you do it, at least do it with "great gesto". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)