Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 December 18

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December 18

Comma or no comma?

Is there a comma (or no comma) after the word "December"?

• The meeting will be held on the 12th day of December, 2017.
• The meeting will be held on the 12th day of December 2017.

I am not interested in re-phrasing the statement (e.g., "The meeting will be held on December 12, 2017." or such.) I just want to know the proper punctuation for the sentence, as written. Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I think I've seen it both ways, reflecting pronunciation. "December, 2017" focuses on the date 12 December, giving the impression that it's an annual recurring event, and you're talking about the 2017 edition of the event. "December 2017" sounds more appropriate if it's a one-time event, as you're merely saying that it's the twelfth day in a specific month of history. Nyttend (talk) 05:50, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the comma is optional. I like to think of the comma as a replacement of “of”. 140.254.70.225 (talk) 14:57, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the comma is optional. But British English does not usually have any commas in dates, whereas they are obligatory in the American English format. So I suspect you would see a difference in the frequency of the commas between the two dialects. Matt's talk 15:45, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, all! 32.209.55.38 (talk) 16:52, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I have certainly seen writing where a month/year combination is always treated as requiring a comma, as "December, 2017", but I think this is old-fashioned now. Wikipedia style calls for no comma: see WP:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates, months and years. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 00:59, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Really? Then that style guide is widely ignored throughout WP. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

What do you expect on a project where anyone is allowed to edit? That said, I haven't seen a great number of such commas myself. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 00:57, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

So, why mention it in the first place? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

In case the original poster was interested in a reference to a manual of style (you know, Reference Desk?) or specifically had a Wikipedia context in mind. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 10:40, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

• I find the usage without the comma coarse and uneducated. Of course, I wasn't born after Clinton was impeached. μηδείς (talk) 00:36, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

When I was learning to read, Trump hadn't even gotten it up yet, and I agree. Boorish, even. I like it without when the day's not mentioned, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:05, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I trust it isn't too windy up there on the moral high ground, Meds. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:44, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? [redacted]? Where does this escalate from here? I didn't insult anyone, so lets please just revert to civility now that we've proven we can play word games like Catholic-school girls. μηδείς (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry I offended you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I prefer not to use the comma, and can remember when Clinton was a foreign leader; but I am neither coarse nor uneducated, and would be somewhat miffed if someone suggested otherwise. Bazza (talk) 17:23, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Note, I said I find the usage coarse and uneducated, and I am assuming an American context. They don't teach children cursive nowadays, and I find that uneducated, and I find texting during church or at a restaurant table as coarse as public masturbation. I'd expect to get the same short shrift overseas if I persisted in writing center, which I most certainly would. μηδείς (talk) 05:32, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

A word to the wise. The expression "I find" in the way you've been using it in this thread is just about the most judgmental thing one can say in English. It is exactly the language used by actual judges when deciding what is or is not the case. It appears to place the speaker in a rather morally superior position compared to those about whom they're doing the finding. I just thought you might like to be aware of this. But maybe you have your reasons. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Someone might say "I find that corks preserve the flavour of a wine much better than plastic stoppers". That's not in the least judgmental. 92.8.223.3 (talk) 15:33, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Well this is a bit off-topic, but perhaps that's an Australian connotation, and Australians don't use that expression out of legal proceedings? Americans say things like "I find it hard to digest cucumber rinds" or "I find honey works as well as sugar" all the time without passing sentence. In any case, yes, I am passing judgment on people who let their children use cellphones at the table in a restaurant. But I am doing so without calling them names or cursing. Even in Spanish one says lo encuentro interesante; "I find it interesting"; so I find it difficult to believe that the only possible interpretation of the usage is universally attackatory. μηδείς (talk) 20:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I find commas so troubling, don't you? But don't quote me on that. Martinevans123 (talk)