Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 March 11

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March 11

Cuneiform

(Re-posting question from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 March 31 which wasn't answered at the time)

Can somebody help me identify the characters on this tablet?

The left column looks like A AB BI A2 ALEPH U I, and the top of the middle column like AL MA GAR; but the rest of the characters are too difficult for me to match against the list of cuneiform signs. --81.96.84.137 (talk) 11:08, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

When was this rather odd sculpture made? If before the 1850s, then nobody would known enough about Assyrian cuneiform to get it right. Even if made after the 1850s, they might still have gotten it wrong... AnonMoos (talk) 14:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

According to the image description page, it's from the 1870s. --31.55.19.80 (talk) 14:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

One of those unanswerable questions, was the sculptor genuinely unaware that cuneiform could be translated or did he not bother since it was likely that nobody else would know? Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Surely, the success in decyphering cuneiform was in recent news at the time the sculpture was created: Sir Henry Rawlinson was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society in February 1850 on account of being "The Discoverer of the key to the Ancient Persian, Babylonian, and Assyrian Inscriptions in the Cuneiform character." --81.96.84.137 (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

It may be helpful to research the sculptor, Thomas Nicholls, and the architect, William Burges, to find out if either of them was familiar with cuneiform. DuncanHill (talk) 22:47, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

They probably couldn't read cuneiform (or other ancient languages) themselves; I presume the sculptor had copied a sample of cuneiform from some reference, same as he copied the Aramaic alphabet. (The sculpture in question is part of a group of five.) --81.96.84.137 (talk) 23:15, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

What's the linguistic equivalent of a foreign accent in a written text?

What's the equivalent of a foreign accent in a written text? Is there some deviation from the normal that remains in the texts written by non-native speakers, no matter how hard they try to get it right?--Llaanngg (talk) 13:29, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

There was an interesting 1992 article on subtle features of syntax which adult learners of French often never really acquire no matter how long they live in France: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/452903/summary -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

An interesting one indeed, but it only addresses the difference in comprehension, not the difference in production, between native and non-native speakers. --81.96.84.137 (talk) 22:17, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Presumably, if non-fully-native speakers are more likely than native speakers to accept sentences such as "Diane a placé dans sa chambre des fleurs" they would also be more likely to say such sentences. (If anyone can download the PDF file on that site, the interesting part, if you know some French, is the sentences in Appendix 2. I can't download the PDF, but I have a paper copy here...) AnonMoos (talk) 02:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Are you asking about a generic term? I think the deviations vary depending on both the author's native language and the language of the written text. I know my Chinese colleagues tend to omit articles in their written English, and when I see this in other written English, I assume a Chinese author. I'm referring to text which is otherwise of high quality, not to mere sloppy Chinglish translation. -Arch dude (talk) 03:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not aware of any term specifically for writing but you (the OP) are talking about a kind of crosslinguistic interference or transfer. I personally find this field very interesting. Recently there has been more study of the topic and it is used practically, among other fields, in criminal profiling and forensic science as well as in improving the way foreign languages are taught. Here are just a few interesting papers (a quick google search will reveal many more):Native Language Detection, Prediction of Native Language by Writer Error Pattern, Determining an Author's Native Language by Mining a Text for Errors--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 04:02, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

You shouldn't assume a Chinese author. Indian English is like this as well. The classic bloopers:

• The Portuguese lady applying for a secretarial job who commented "my mother is a typewriter."
• The Portuguese lady writing to the DJ on an English radio station: "I am a fervent of your emissions."
• The native English speaker who introduced her male friend to a lady using the verb introduzir instead of apresentar.

See Faux amis and English As She Is Spoke. 150.95.8.132 (talk) 17:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.5.88.48 (talk)

Incidentally, that usage of "typewriter" would have been correct in English at one time: the OED Online has examples dated 1884, 1887, and 1895. (Similarly with the word computer, more recently; you may have noticed such a usage if you saw the movie Hidden Figures.) --76.71.6.254 (talk) 08:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

The arrangement of the keys on the first line was of course so that the inventor could easily pick out the letters T-Y-P-E-W-R-I-T-E-R when demonstrating his product to a potential customer. The word was also hyphenated or two words up to 1897: by 1899 it was one word, referring to the machine and not the person. "Typist" has a long history from the printing trade. "Stenographer" also has a long history. The word "compute" retains its broad meaning. 80.5.88.48 (talk) 08:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

I once guessed (accurately) that a Wikipedia editor was educated in French, from some distinctive misspellings. —Tamfang (talk) 10:59, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Old names

One of my great-grandfathers had the first name "Clowney." I've occasionally seen this as a family name, e.g., Jadeveon Clowney, but never as a given name. Names wax and wane in popularity (not too many boys named Adolf nowadays...) so I'm curious if this was common as a given name in the 19th century. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

In the old days it was not at all uncommon for a given name to match an ancestor's surname. Rogers Hornsby, for one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Rogers Covey-Crump is alive and well. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Our head of department's first name is Hobson, and he's only in his 50s. --81.96.84.137 (talk) 08:20, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

So even today it's done sometimes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

One of my first cousins has my surname as his first name: his mother (my father's sister) wanted to keep her maiden name in the family. Fortunately it is a surname which is not unknown as a first name, so it doesn't seem too unusual. Wymspen (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Numerous family names have become 'naturalized', as it were, as forenames; e.g. Bruce, Cameron, Lindsey, Sidney, and recently Madison. —Tamfang (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks folks. This makes sense. His middle name was "Vaught", another surname. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:57, 12 March 2017 (UTC)