Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 March 25

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March 25

Surprise packet

Christmas Island, part of the republic of Kiribati, is spelt Kiritimati in the local language. This word means "Christmas". In the Kiribati language ti is pronounced s (rather similar to as in "nation"), but this is not intuitive to non - natives, so while natives pronounce it "Christmas" others may not. Are there any other examples of letter combinations with a surprising sound? 92.8.221.9 (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Much of the English language, for a start. Henry^Flower 16:03, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

For example, the military ranks colonel ("kernel") and lieutenant ("left-tenant" in British). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:13, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

The very word Kiribati, is pronounced /kiribas/ in the local language (and sometimes in English as well). Additionally, the English gh is pronounced /f/ in cough, and the English x is pronounced /z/ in some rare words, e.g. xylophone. HOTmag (talk) 17:30, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

WHAAOE: List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations Asmrulz (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Also, in Rushin, the case ending -go is pronounced -vo. The rest is more or less phonetic. Asmrulz (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

You know it's not true, Russian orthography is not phonetic, not even phonemic.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Kiribati means "Gilberts".—Wavelength (talk) 18:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

See The Chaos and ghoti. Matt Deres (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, only vaguely related, just out of interest. Am I using the right terms if I say that the "phonotactics" of the Gilbertese language only allow "open (CV) syllables with no coda"? pɪit æɪ jɯ aka --Shirt58 (talk) 07:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, by definition an open syllable is one with no coda. CV is the universally "unmarked" (there's that word again) syllable type -- all languages allow it. AnonMoos (talk) 08:08, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

AnonMoos: so, did I use the term "phonotactics" correctly in this context? Woo-hoo! Pete "one of the WP:ADMINs that markedly wouldn't have the faintest clue how to set a range-block" AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 08:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Houyhnhnm, pronounced /ˈhwɪnəm/.

St John, pronounced ‘sinjun’.

hiccough, pronounced ‘hiccup’.

Wednesday, pronounced ‘wenzday’.

Colonel, pronounced ‘kernal’. —Stephen (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Wednesday and Colonel have the same spelling and basically the same pronunciation in all quasi-standard dialects of English, so while they're unusual spellings, they would not be a surprise to a literate English-speaker. AnonMoos (talk) 08:08, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

What do you mean by "quasi-standard dialects of English"? HOTmag (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Dialects other than those which are heavily-regional, creole-influenced, or make no particular attempt to at least partially correspond to written English... AnonMoos (talk) 12:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I can't think of any concrete example that meets your criteria. HOTmag (talk) 14:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

The most extreme example is Saramaccan, which derives more from English than it does from any other single language, but which has basically zero spoken mutual intercomprehensibility with General American or Received Pronunciation. There are many intermediate situations along the continuum... AnonMoos (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted you. You'd written: "[quasi standard] dialects other than those which are...", so I thought you'd meant: "[quasi standard] dialects, other than those which are etc." (i.e. the words "which are " refer to the word "those "). Now I understand you'd meant: "[quasi standard] dialects (other than those), which are etc." (i.e. the words "which are " refer to the word "dialects "). If I'd written this sentence, I'd have written: "Every dialect, other than those, which is etc.", so that no misunderstanding might have arisen. Anyway, now I wonder what you'd meant by "those "... HOTmag (talk) 07:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if "Wednesday" has anything to do here. The OP has asked about a "surprising sound", not about absence of sounds, which is not a rare phenomenon. Check: lamb, sign, hour, know, island, castle, law (vs. cow, low), fault (when reading poetry), and the well-known examples in non-rhotic English, and so forth.

As for "colonel": It had already been mentioned in this thread, and it is a good example, in General American accent.

As for St John: No wonder about its pronunciation. Basically, it should have been pronounced /sɪnt dʒʌn/, but the /t/ assimilates to the following sound /d/, so it becomes /sɪn(d) dʒʌn/. HOTmag (talk) 08:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Do you not sound the l in fault in your lingo, HOTmag? Where r u from? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I do sound the /l/, except on special occasions, as mentioned above. HOTmag (talk) 09:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

HOTmag -- "hour" and "island" have quite remote etymological spellings (similar to the b in "debt"), meant to retroactively coerce the words to look pseudo-Latin many centuries after they were no longer Latin (and "island" doesn't actually come from Latin at all, though "isle" does). The "w"s after vowel letters are very dubiously "silent" (resulting from diphthongs that monophthongized to long vowels, some of which have rediphthongized in Modern English). Most of the rest result from sound losses in Middle or Modern English (though "sign" is a little more complex, since spelling "gn" means IPA [ɲ] in French). AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

As for: hour, island, sign, and the rest - resulting "from sound losses in Middle or Modern English": Of course, but I only gave examples of "absence of sounds", so don't you agree that all of these words contain absence of sounds normally sounded in other words?

As for law: From an etymological viewpoint, you are right; However, practically, the w - normally sounded as a consonant (e.g. in cow low) - is not sounded in law, at least not as a consonant; Further, in speech having the cot-caught merger, law is sounded like la, so the w is absolutely not sounded. Indeed, when considering phonology, this phenomenon can easily be reasoned, but practically - the w is not sounded, and this was my point: showing that absence of sounds "is not a rare phenomenon" in English. HOTmag (talk) 14:16, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Where in the world are you getting that "w" is sounded as a consonant in "cow" or "low"? I'm sorry, that's 100% wrong. The "w" modifies the vowel sound but is otherwise silent in those words. --Trovatore (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, now that I think about it, in "low" it doesn't even modify the vowel sound; it's just plain silent. --Trovatore (talk) 18:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I was taught that w and y are semiconsonants in "war" and "yore," but semivowels in "now" and "boy". I do not see them as silent letters. —Stephen (talk) 01:24, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

In "cow", the trailing "w" is kind of like a "u", like if it were spelled "cau". In "low" it works the same as if it were a trailing "e" or "h" or whatever turns it into a long "o". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:51, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

"Cow" is pronounced /kaʊ/. If you want to interpret that as the "w" representing /ʊ/, I guess you can, but in any case it is not a consonant. "Low" and "lo" are pronounced identically. --Trovatore (talk) 18:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Precisely. The trailing "w" is not a consonant. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:07, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

@Trovatore, it seems your accent has the cot-caught merger, so you may consider the "o" in "low" (and in "hope") - which is (of course) different from the monophthong of "cot-caught" - as a monophthong as well. However, in my GA accent, "cot" is pronounced with a monophthong: [kat], "caught" being pronounced with a different monophthong: [kɔt], while "hope" and "low" are pronounced with a diphthong: [hɔʊp] and [lɔʊ], i.e. they begin with an /ɔ/ (like that of "caught" and of "dog" in GA accent) - or rather with an /o/ (like that of "for" in our North American accent), but end with an /ʊ/ (like that of "put"). BTW, that's why "hope" and "low" are transcribed in IPA with a diphthong: [hɔʊp] and [lɔʊ], or [hoʊp] and [loʊ].

As for "cow" pronounced /kaʊ/: You are right, and also its IPA transcription is /kaʊ/ - i.e. it's a diphthong (beginning with an /a/ and ending with an /ʊ/), but you forgot to add that also the IPA transcription of "low" has a diphthong: [lɔʊ] or [loʊ] - and I guess that's because your accent has the cot-caught merger so you consider the "o" in "low" (and in "hope") to be a monophthong. That's why you claimed: "in 'low' it doesn't even modify the vowel sound ". However, actually, the w in "low" does modify the vowel sound of "o", because the "o" in "dog" and in "for" is a monophthong, while the "ow" in "low" is a diphthong. Anyways, words like "so" (and "lo") prove nothing, because every word (except for "do and for "to") ending with "o" - is pronounced with a diphthong [ɔʊ] or /oʊ/ - as if it was spelled with "ow" (as in "I sow"). Anyway, when I think about the pronunciation of "o", I think about its pronunciation as a monophthong (in GA accent) in "dog" and in "for", so to my ears the w in "low" does add something - absent in the regular "o" like that of "dog" and of "for" (not of "lo" though, but again this word proves nothing).

As for whether w is a consonant: Indeed, the w is not a consonant, but rather a semi-consonant. So, when I wrote that w is sounded as a "consonant" (e.g. in "cow" and "low"), I meant it's sounded as a semi-consonant (e.g. in "cow" and "low"). I wrote "consonant" (rather than a "semi-consonant"), to be brief. Indeed, w is the corresponding semi-consonant of the vowel /u/ rather than of the vowel /ʊ/. However, English has no corresponding semi-consonant of the vowel /ʊ/, so w can be regarded also as the closest corresponding English semi-consonant of the vowel /ʊ/, because /u/ and /ʊ/ are rather close to each other (Check: "tour"; Is it pronounced /tur/ or /tʊr/ in GA accent? To my ears it doesn't matter that much, because both vowels are close enough to each other when followed by /r/ ). HOTmag (talk) 22:12, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, HOTmag, you are still completely wrong. 100% wrong and 0% right. "W" can represent a semi-consonant, but it doesn't here. There is no consonant there at all, whatsoever. /aʊ/ and /oʊ/ are purely vowel sounds. --Trovatore (talk) 05:28, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I do in fact distinguish "cot" from "caught". --Trovatore (talk) 05:34, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I overreacted a little bit on that first bit. Our semivowel article (where semi-consonant redirects) does assert that (for example "fly" could be given phonemically as the (aggressively strange) /flaj/ instead of the (much more intuitive) /flaɪ/. I still think this is utterly weird and wrong-headed, because there is obviously no approximant in "fly"; it ends in vowel and only a vowel. But it does seem that some people do it. --Trovatore (talk) 06:01, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

As for your quasi-quotation from our article about quasi-vowels (or rather semivowels): Please notice, that it does not "assert" all of what you've claimed it does, e.g. it does not "assert" that /flaj/ is "(aggressively strange)", nor that /flaɪ/ is "(much more intuitive)". However, when I still think about it a little more, I can guess that's why you've put these words in brackets only, am I right now? HOTmag (talk) 07:11, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't quotation, it was indirect discourse, and yes, the words in parentheses are mine. You're not a native speaker, right, HOTmag? It's a little strange when you act like you are. --Trovatore (talk) 19:00, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say "quotation", so you didn't have to say it wasn't quotaion. As for your question: this isn't the first time you ask me that, and I wonder why you act like you've got doubts about that. HOTmag (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Just little things here and there that don't quite jibe. For example, you claim to have a "GA accent", but then you say "brackets" where an American would say "parentheses". You don't have to say, of course. But I have had you in my head as "non-native speaker". --Trovatore (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

What doesn't jibe? Have I ever claimed I'm American? (BTW, I've never been to the States, although my accent is absolutely American. Further, when I talk to English speakers, they sometimes try to guess where I'm from. When this happen, they always say they are sure I've been born in the US, and if they are Americans they usually insist on the Midwest, but then they are surprised to hear that I've never been there, nor to any other region in the US. Then they usually apologize for their mistake, and immediately ask me about my accent that made them mistake, and then I must tell them a long autobiographical story. This happened to me a lot of times. Anyway, I don't think Wikipedia is the appropriate place for telling my biography).

Like I said, little things. Lots of things that seem just slightly off from what a native speaker (American or otherwise) would say. That was the only one I could immediately think of. --Trovatore (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Next time, please tell me (in order for me to understand better what you mean). HOTmag (talk) 11:42, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

The silence of s in island is not due to any sound loss, but due to a false etymological spelling, connecting the word to the unrelated isle. The original was iland, coming from i-land, (yland) where "i" is the modern reflex of Old English ieg, see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=island. The word egg in some place names has the same origin, such as Egg Harbor, NJ. μηδείς (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Please notice that the expression "sound losses" (that was quoted from what user:Anonmoos had written) had not referred to the words hour, island, sign, but rather to "the rest" (i.e. lamb, know, castle, and likewise). HOTmag (talk) 19:23, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

February: pronounced as it is spelt in Scottish English, but in standard English English it is normally pronounced as though it was spelt "Febyoory" Iapetus (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC).

-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Iapetus, I think you need to explain that. Do you mean only three syllables? I don't think that's "standard" for anyone, though it might be rendered in fast speech.

Personally, I say /'fɛbju:,ɛri:/, but I don't cringe too much when people say /'fɛbru:,ɛri:/. Though it does make me think of Kevin Kline in The Pirates of Penzance. --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

In British English, there's a general tendency for -ary and -ory endings to be unstressed (not secondary stressed), with schwa vowels. So February would start as [ˈfɛbju:ərɪ] with 4 syllables, but given the existence of "centering diphthongs" in such accents, there's a natural tendency for this to be elided to [ˈfɛbjʊə̯rɪ] with 3 syllables... AnonMoos (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

"Febri", with two syllables isn't uncommon in casual or fast speech in Britain. Naturally follows "Janri". Itsmejudith (talk) 14:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

As with pronouncing "library" as "lib-ree". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:44, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

In this country people talk about doing things in "Jan" or "Feb" - these are the only months abbreviated in this way. Only February, March, May and August are used as surnames and only April to August (inclusive) as forenames. "Julie" follows the old pronunciation (before the stress shifted to the last syllable). 81.151.128.189 (talk) 15:11, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Don January and January Jones would slightly disagree. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:09, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that "in this country" only applied to the first sentence. If it was meant to apply to the whole paragraph, then given the IP geolocates to the UK, the above examples don't seem to be from "this country" (although when it comes to forenames, I find it hard to believe there isn't at least one person for each of the months in the UK). Nil Einne (talk) 12:49, 29 March 2017 (UTC)