Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 29

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September 29

Why does Cantonese have a written form, but Shanghainese, Wuhanese, and Hokkien do not?

How come Cantonese get a written form but the others do not? In such a case, how can one write a children's playground song in the Wuhan speech? Is there a way to indicate a particular pronunciation of a specific regional word? In the Wuhan dialect, as opposed to standard Mandarin, the pronunciation of 孩子 and 鞋子 are reversed. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 05:29, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

See Written Cantonese, which seems to indicate that it started in Hong Kong, where written Mandarin was little known, and not used for official purposes. Wymspen (talk) 10:32, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

You can transcribe Chinese using IPA, although that produces linguist-readable, rather than human-readable text. If all the sounds involved appear in Mandarin, then pinyin (etc.) would be a more accessible option. Bopomofo can be used for Hokkien. Henry^Flower 10:52, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

We have an article Written Hokkien, and there's also Chinese Wikipedia#Wikipedias in other varieties of Chinese, including https://hak.wikipedia.org/ (Hakka Chinese), https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/ (Yue, specifically Cantonese), http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/ (Southern Min), etc. AnonMoos (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

That's a myth. The only reason that Cantonese writing is somewhat codified is due to Hong Kong's colonial history and to a lesser extent this applies to Southern Min due to Taiwan's status. Current research states that most peculiarities of Chinese varieties can be traced back to Chinese characters. It's just a matter of necessity and emphasis of local identity. Keep in mind that vernacular/spoken Chinese in written form is a fairly recent thing. When someone wants to create a written form for their local dialect, there are mainly two possibilities for uncertain cases: borrowing a character unrelated in meaning that has similar pronunciation or creating a new character because the etymology and the original character have been obscure among the local population. Later research often rectifies mistakes, but popularization of incorrect usage is irreversible. The character 畀 found in classical Chinese has been interpreted as 俾 in Cantonese but as 拨 in Shanghai dialect. Dictionaries by researchers have been published to correct this. The usage of these "colloquial" characters is discouraged since characters generally should have the same meaning in every dialect. While borrowed characters are frowned upon, it is arguable whether a newly created character is justified because it has diverged from the etymologically original character and this process is not unknown to classical Chinese itself. Some Chinese Wikipedias have opted for a Latin-based transcription because they don’t want to deal with researching origins and just want a quick way to write down their dialect although not many people can actually read it and it’s usually possible to keep everything entirely in Chinese characters. Therefore, in Wuhan dialect, you don’t swap the words 孩子 and 鞋子. “Child” stays “child” and “shoe” stays “shoe”, pronunciation is not indicated, and a person from Wuhan automatically knows how to read it in their dialect. It’s etymology over pronunciation. Of course, you can use wrong characters for comical effect in Internet culture.--92.75.208.20 (talk) 14:47, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

That reminds me of the borrowing of Chinese characters into Japanese and Korean. The meaning and sometimes the phonology are retained. Same goes for certain Chinese dialects. Funny thing is, loanwords from English are meant to phonetically resemble the original, while often having a nonsensical meaning. I have recently learned through a language app that the Korean word for yogurt really sounds like yogurt. The Chinese version translates the meaning, which literally means "sour milk". That makes sense, as yogurt is made from milk and tastes sour. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:46, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

And as I do every time a question like this comes up, I point the OP to The Sing-song Girls of Shanghai. If OP has access to microfilm of old Chinese newspapers, a perusal of Shanghai newspapers from before c. the 1960s will show use of written Shanghainese vernacular characters equivalent to what the OP seems to think counts as "written" Cantonese. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Word for old parents

Is there a word for people who become parents late in life? I seem to remember there is a geronto- type word. Amisom (talk) 21:15, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Could you be thinking of senile primigravida? That's just about the mom, though, not the dad. --Trovatore (talk) 23:44, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Also called elderly primigravida, "elderly" being 35. It's also called geriatric primigravida which may be what Amisom is thinking of. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:16, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

You can also use elderly primipara (describing the age at which the woman gives birth rather than the age at which she becomes pregnant, or gravid). There is also an equivalent term for those who have subsequent children late in life - elderly multigravida or multipara. Wymspen (talk) 09:55, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

@Amisom: do any of the above suggestions ring a bell? --Trovatore (talk) 23:13, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Elderly primipara or primigravida actually refers to a woman who becomes pregnant for the first time after the age of 35. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:50, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can't find any term on Wiktionary with a geronto- prefix and that means to parent someone later in life. [1] My best suggestion would be "elderly parent". Back in the olden days, people brought forth youngsters in their teens and twenties. Now, people deliver youngsters in their twenties and thirties. I suppose the thirties will be considered "old" if you live in ancient times or present-day Guatemala. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:56, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

"Elderly parent" does not work for me. My grandmother was an "elderly parent" when she died at age 95. Her daughter (my mom) was described as "caring for an elderly parent." Mom was 70 at the time. -Arch dude (talk) 03:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

My grandfather was 49 years old when my mother, his youngest child, was born. He was born in 1881 and lost his first wife in the worldwide influenza pandemic at the end of the First World War, which left him with four motherless children. He remarried a young farm girl (my grandmother) who he had hired to help around the house, and they had three more children. Had it not been for that horrific flu epidemic, I would not have been born. In my opinion, he was not elderly at 49, since I am 65 now, but he was quite elderly when I knew him as a young child. What a guy! Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:16, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

"Late life parent" (or "late-life" which is less ambiguous) has a fair internet usage. [2] Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Aren't these referred to as "mature parents"? 82.14.24.95 (talk) 17:43, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Maybe, but "mature" and "immature" can refer to behaviour as well as chronological age. My link above was from an online medical dictionary. Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 1 October 2017 (UTC)