Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 7

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September 7

Expressions of degree

"Its a lot fun as a technical challenge to work on so large PDF files" — Is "so" really used approprately here? Or what would be more idiomatic – "that", "such"? And what about the negation: How would you translate German "So große Zimmer haben wir hier nicht" for instance? = "We don't have so / that / such big rooms here"? In any case, I assume "so" would be wrong here at least for the negation, right? Warmly--Tuchiel (talk) 13:10, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, "such" is the standard usage in both cases. Dbfirs 13:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! But then what about "so" and "that"? Can I summarize that "so" is, in this case, actually only used predicatively?--Tuchiel (talk) 13:25, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

You can also use "so", but only with reference to a singular object: "It's a lot of fun as a technical challenge to work on so large a PDF file". Bazza (talk) 13:43, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah, interesting – thanks! And "that"?--Tuchiel (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

You could rewrite it as: "It's enjoyable as a technical challenge to work on that large of a PDF file". Some other comments:

1) You needed the apostrophe in "It's", being a contraction for "It is".

2) It's a bit odd to refer to a "technical challenge" as "lots of fun", since "technical challenge" is formal and "lots of fun" is informal. I would say it formally as "It was enjoyable...". To make it informal, a rewrite is needed: "It was hard, but lots of fun, to work on...". But, this looks like something for a résumé, in which case the formal version is best. StuRat (talk) 14:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

"That large of a" strikes me as non-standard in British English, but might be more common in American? We might say, slightly informally, "that large a PDF file", or "so large a PDF file". Dbfirs 15:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Is that what's called an epenthetic "of"? We see the same phenomenon in "If only he had have come earlier, ...". The included word might make the expression slightly easier to say, but it has absolutely no justification from a syntactical point of view. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:13, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

So, for the plural I could also use both "... to work on so large PDF files" and "that large PDF files"? If so, once more, what about the negation: Would "We don't use so / that large PDF files" both be correct, too?--Tuchiel (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Actually, in the plural, if you use "that", the word order is usually "PDF files that large" (this is also possible in the singular). Curiously, "such large PDF files" is correct. As for "so large", I would not use it in this version of the expression. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that "such" can only be applied to NPs (noun phrases) - and countable NPs need an article in the singular - "such large files"; "such a large file". The meaning of "such" is not necessarily tied to the "large": in "such a large file" it nearly always is, but "such large files" could also mean "large files of that sort" as well as "files which are so large". "So" and (informal) "that" apply to AP (adjective phrases), and result in an AP of restricted use: either predicative, or needing a specified NP following: "The file is so large"; "so/that large a file". The latter construction is not idiomatic in the plural (at least in my idiolect) "*so large files" - I would have to use the construction with "such". --15:30, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments, some repeating above points:

1. It's, not Its
2. either "a lot of fun" or "lots of fun", not "a lot fun"
3. "such large PDF files" or informally "PDF files this/that big" would work. "PDF files as/so/that large" is grammatical but less usual ("as" is unmarked, "so" is formal/old-fashioned, "that" is informal). "PDF files as/so large as this/that" would be unremarkable.
4. I disagree with StuRat that there is a clash of register. The geek often uses technical vocabulary and slang in the same sentence, and manipulation of PDF files sounds pretty geeky.

jnestorius^(talk) 15:53, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

4) Sounds like we are in agreement that mixing formal and informal language like that will make them sound like a geek. We just disagree on whether or not that is a good thing. StuRat (talk) 15:36, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

@ColinFine and Jnestorius: Do all of your previous explanations also apply to the negation? @Jnestorius: What exactly do you mean by saying "as" is unmarked?--Tuchiel (talk) 15:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes for me, Tuchiel. All my comments apply equally when the expression is preceded by "not", except that the alternative meaning of "such large files" (where the "such" is not semantically associated with "large") is much less likely. --ColinFine (talk) 16:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

In this context "unmarked" means neither formal nor informal. See markedness. jnestorius^(talk) 04:42, 11 September 2017 (UTC)