Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 August 17

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August 17

Pronunciation of "gauche" as English word

wikt:gauche#Pronunciation gives IPA and an audio sample with the middle "au" pronounced like the o in "go", which is close to the French pronunciation. But I've heard and have been pronouncing it more like the "a" in "raw" or "law". Is there any wisdom about this? I'm ok with a "gauche" pronunciation as it were. The French-way sounds a little bit fancy to me (US west coast). Thanks. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 21:53, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, this ageing BrE speaker has only ever heard it pronounced as you first describe.

A friendly question: why do you consider pronouncing a word, well known to be a recent borrowing from French, in a manner similar to its French pronunciation "fancy"? Presumably there is not a standard way of pronouncing it differently in your part of the world, otherwise you'd just use that. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.24.56 (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

In terms of Wikipedia:IPA for English transcriptions, the prevalent English pronunciation would be [ɡoʊʃ]. That's the only pronunciation given at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gauche (except for a technical chemistry meaning), and I don't think I've heard it any other way. There are some words where attempting to pronounce the French accurately could be considered pretentious ("hors d'oeuvres"), or where a wrong attempt to pronounce in French has resulted in a horrible botch which is neither natural English nor accurate French ("lingerie"), but I don't think this applies to "gauche"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok, the French way it is then. The "non-fancy" pronunciation sounds to me more like an English word of French origin (loanword) while the French pronunciation is more like a French word shoehorned into an English sentence. I just came across the articles inkhorn term and aureation which also convey the image. Ideally I want an effect that's sort of the opposite, more down-to-earth or whatever, but without actually being an error, so oh well. Thanks! 173.228.123.207 (talk) 02:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The OED has /ɡəʊʃ/ for the UK (RP) and /ɡoʊʃ/ for the American pronunciation, though, here in Northern England, my "standard" pronunciation is closer to the American. I think I have heard [ɡɔːʃ] but I wouldn't say it that way: my local dialect (Yorkshire) would be [ɡo̞ːʃ] Dbfirs 06:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The American pronunciation of French loan words such as "premier", "debut" and "route" are at variance with the original vowel sounds too. Perhaps it's because they're a bit further away from France (ditto Yorkshire).  ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

At least the pronunciation [ˈɡæɹɪdʒ] doesn't exist in the U.S., only [ɡəˈɹɑː(d)ʒ]... [1] -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:48, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

... so do you say [mæɹɪˈɑː(d)ʒ] and [kæɹɪˈɑː(d)ʒ] on your side of the pond? It's strange how pronunciation varies. Dbfirs 07:55, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Those aren't recent enough loanwords from French... AnonMoos (talk) 08:07, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

That's true: 1300 and 1425, so they have been thoroughly Anglicised. I was surprised to see how recent garage is. Montage is even more recent, and we both use [ɑːʒ], but with different stress. Dbfirs 10:59, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

• Part of the issue here is that French has an entirely different vowel system from English. When a word is adopted into English, the vowels often and quickly change to the nearest English approximation. See English phonology#Vowels and French phonology#Vowels. I count at most only 2-3 potential vowel sounds in common, and it may literally be none, depending on one's dialect. --Jayron32 12:18, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Which is partly why it makes little or no sense to include the French diacritics when we steal a French word and make it an English word. The way we pronounce our 'debut' (or 'début' if you must) is not the same as the French pronounce their début. Same for role (rôle), cafe (café) etc etc. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

So is it safe to write cafe and make them rhyme? Dbfirs 17:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I would not presume to express an opinion about the proper French pronunciation of any actual French word. But I can describe my personal experience with how Americans in California pronounce "gauche" as an anglicized word. It starts out identical to the standard English word "go" and ends with a very soft "shhhhh", as if you were a encouraging a child to be quiet. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:46, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Why would "safe" and "cafe" rhyme anymore than "rough" and "cough" and "through" and "thorough" and ..... There is no reason for the English word "cafe" to have a diacritic. --Khajidha (talk) 19:25, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

... except that the word café has always had an acute accent until very recently when typists stopped knowing where to find the acute. Of the dozens of cites in the OED, exactly one has a missing accent, and that is from the Johannesburgh Sunday Times in 1974. Things went downhill elsewhere quite rapidly from then on. Dbfirs 19:54, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

So, this "very recently" is my entire lifetime? Sorry, the accent has been losing ground quite steadily. For example, there's a wine bar here in my town called "Cafe Rule". No accent. --Khajidha (talk) 20:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I see it like this: EITHER:

• (a) the word is and remains foreign; we are using it in English texts because either we are quoting someone or there is no better English one; on every occurrence it is italicised and all its diacritics are shown; OR
• (b) it has been fully incorporated into the English language; it is no longer considered a foreign word (merely one of foreign origin); it is not italicised and any of its diacritics are dropped.

Show me a cafe in an anglophone nation whose signage has Café rather than Cafe. OK, there may be a few odd exceptions, but overwhelmingly it's Cafe, because this word became an English word a long time ago. Those with Café are in francophone place such as Quebec (note: not Québec in English), or are catering to toffee-nosed snobs, or hired a sign painter who was not properly instructed and made it up as he went along. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:40, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

. . . . . . . or they just want you to know it's not just short for cafeteria :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I was just about to write that cafés here in England almost always retain their accents like this one, but a Google image search shows that nearly all modern signs don't. Quelle horreur! Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

(smiling seraphically as is my wont ...) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:13, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I see in Google ngrams that the acute accent has been losing out since the 1920s (though it was still the standard spelling when I was at school). In 1929, the Society for Pure English wrote in a tract: " If popular tea-shops paint their title of cafe over their doors the word will be pronounced like chafe and safe." but I guess they were fighting a losing battle, even then. Dbfirs 06:00, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Rhyme for Gauche?

Is there a word in English that in any dialect that rhymes with Gauche?Naraht (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

skosh. --Trovatore (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

In my dialect, "gauche" also rhymes with "brioche". --Khajidha (talk) 22:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I pronounce that more like /briːˈʌʃ/. But still, I guess it is an answer to the query as stated. --Trovatore (talk) 23:46, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

This has several suggestions. The most common words there are brioche and cloche. --Jayron32 12:59, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Take the trailing "uh" from Nova Scotia or Mike Scioscia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:32, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

What trailing "uh" sound? --Jayron32 13:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Schwa -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I know that the "uh" sound is called a "schwa" I was wondering where a trailing schwa appears in the word "Gauche". The word has a single syllable, and has no trailing schwa. --Jayron32 14:19, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Not in gauche, in "Scotia". --Khajidha (talk) 14:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes. I was also thinking Dave LaRoche rhymes with gauche, but I'm not 100 percent certain of his pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I remember my folks using the word skosh. Now that I've read this dictionary definition I realize my Dad might have picked it up while serving during the Korean War. That takes care of my "learn something new" for August 23 :-) MarnetteD|Talk 17:25, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd ask what you forgot in order to make room, but obviously you don't remember.:-) SinisterLefty (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2019 (UTC)