Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 June 1

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June 1

First vs native language

I first learnt to speak a local Indian language, but after living in the UK for a while, when I was young, I learnt English. After all this, I learnt Hindi (kind of important, since you need it in India outside extremely rural areas). Which one is my first language, which is my native language, etc etc? TotallyNotSarcasm (talk) 02:32, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that I speak English the most fluently out of these, hence the confusion. (I have an almost Estuary ~ RP accent, except I don't aspirate unvoiced plosives; this may not really be relevant.) TotallyNotSarcasm (talk) 02:38, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

You can define these imprecise terms however you like. First language would be a place to start if you want some guidance. Henry^Flower 07:53, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

In some circumstances this can become a matter of debate even for language experts. See for example this post, Can a person have more than one native language? on the scholarly linguists' blog Language Log.

[I have added a title to your post to regularise the the format of today's entries.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.2.132 (talk) 09:42, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you!TotallyNotSarcasm (talk) 13:42, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't recall meeting any linguist who denied that a person can have more than one native language. Victor Mair's title for his Language Log piece is a little misleading; his article discusses the possibility of a detrimental first language. I also don't remember seeing both "first language" and "native language" used simultaneously and with different referents/meanings. -- Hoary (talk) 14:13, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I linked to that post because it is close to, though not exactly congruent with, the OP's query, and its Comments discussion contains relevant remarks. It also has a follow-up 'Part 2' which may be of further interest, and searching on the site will likely reveal yet more relevant posts. As for 'First' and 'Native' languages being different, this was and is not an uncommon phenomenon: in the British Empire, for example, many small children of British parents living abroad were initially cared for by local (or at least non-English) servants and first acquired (and retained) their language, which however was subsequently overtaken in predominant use by the English of their relatives and peers which most would agree became their 'native' language. See, for example, Rudyard Kipling. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 13:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

I reasoned that they could mean either the speaker's first language learnt (at home, through exposure), or the language they are most proficient in. These are almost always the same, but in my case they aren't (I know only two other people who have them different, so I'm assuming it's rare). TotallyNotSarcasm (talk) 00:24, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be somewhat common among kids of immigrant families. A number of my child's friends were "first" exposed to Punjabi, Hindi, etc. but are much more proficient in English. In some places, I've seen "cradle language" used to specify the first chronological language. Matt Deres (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussed at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 October 9#Do young children even have a native language if they are enrolled in an immersion program?. 2A00:23C1:D100:1400:10C1:3E81:4C3D:CB46 (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Body parts figuratively associated with emotions

As far as I understand it, people all over the world associate body parts with certain emotions. But I have no idea how universal that organ-to-emotion list is. In American English, dread is in the stomach (in the form of knots, pits, and butterflies), love is in the heart (and ideally in the bottom of the heart) and so is compassion (have a heart), bravery is in the guts, and certainty is a feeling in your bones. How well do these idioms translate into the other major languages of the world? --M@rēino 03:35, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm quite sure such lists are completely different in other parts of the world. For example, when you say here in the Netherlands that you've got butterflies in your stomach, people will understand that you're in love. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:18, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The ancient Greek word φρην literally meant "diaphragm" or "midriff", but had extended meanings to refer to both the "seat of emotions" and one's mind (though I doubt that the Greeks thought that it was the actual organ of thinking): see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/φρήν ... AnonMoos (talk) 11:05, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

For Peninsular Spanish it's almost as you said except for bravery (more in the groins than in the gut "Tiene huevos"/"He has guts") and for certainty, which is in the guts, but the body part itself is not usually mentioned to express it. "Me da a mi" is what is usually used, it's an expression used for speculating, for instance, "Me da a mí que no vendrá hoy"/"I get the feeling he won't be coming today". We associate it with the gut because when we think about certainty, we think it as something we feel there. --Apolo234 (talk) 12:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

American English has the same idiom. Translation of "Tiene huevos" is "He's got balls" which is perfectly understandable in the same sense as in Spanish. (With the notable caveat that Americans use "balls" to mean "testes" whereas Spaniards use "eggs" (huevos) they are both referring to the same body part).--Jayron32 17:37, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

But "he's got balls" doesn't always mean "brave", at least not in a laudable sense. It can have a bit of a connotation of arrogance. "You've got some balls showing up here after what you did last time." The guy in question is probably going to get his ass whooped and tossed out and the implication is that he should have known better than to come there in the first place. --Khajidha (talk) 19:37, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Editors here need to grow a pair. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

TO me, balls has more of the connotation of arrogance (but can mean brave), guts of bravery (and can never mean arrogant). DuncanHill (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

In Italian, the liver (fegato) is associated with bravery. Italians in general seem to be more conscious of their livers than Americans are. People will speak of mal di fegato, a liver-ache, whereas an American would be likely to call any pain in the abdominal region a "stomachache". Whether the pain in mal di fegato actually originates in the liver or not, I don't really know. --Trovatore (talk) 19:47, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

French has the analogous crise de foie. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

New England English has the idiom "calm your liver", used in response to someone who is irrationally angry. [1]. It's more prevalent among older generations.--Jayron32 13:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Chill thy beans, dude. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Not exactly a body part, but has anyone else heard or ever used the expression "sweating cobs", to describe extreme perspiration, usually because of heat. It's common in South Wales, but I'm not sure about the rest of UK or elsewhere. Also not sure how it originated. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

"Sweating bullets", although that has more to do with nervousness. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Sweating cobs is familiar to me - grew up in Cornwall, family from Somerset and Wiltshire. I would only associate it with sweating due to extreme heat or exertion. DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

The spleen was associated with all sorts of centres of emotion, and to this day some of us might occasionally "vent our spleen", see also the spleen in society and culture. Other languages, who have their own word for the actual organ (Milz, milt, milza, rate, bazo, etc. ...), have imported the English word "spleen" to mean a number of mindsets of obsession, crazed ideas, or depression, melancholy, differently nuanced in each language. Ten languages even have their WP article: cs:Splín da:Spleen, de:Spleen, es:Spleen, fr:Spleen baudelairien ("When the low, heavy sky weighs like a lid"), it:Spleen, nl:Spleen, pl:Spleen, pt:Spleen, sk:Splín ... Swedish WP has an article on Mjältsjuka. In this case it is derived from the language's own word for the organ, "mjälte", not from the borrowed English word (though "Spleen" redirects to Mjältsjuka). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:59, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! --M@rēino 19:11, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

The words bilious, bloody, choleric, gall, phlegmatic, sanguine, etc., have connotations. See four temperaments and humorism. 2A00:23C4:5D0C:D500:305F:D789:20A:9B8 (talk) 17:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)