Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 June 30

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June 30

"I'll kill a brick"

What does this mean? It appears in the title of the 1971 song "I'll Kill a Brick (About My Man)" by Hot Sauce featuring Rhonda Washington on Volt: [1]. Presumably it's a US English phrase, as I have never seen or heard it in the UK. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 30 June 2019 (UTC) (There are a couple of videos for the song on YouTube, both of which have UMG copyright statements, but I wont link to them as the status of these statements is currently under discussion).

Here's one theory.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I had not seen that. It's hard to tell the geographical location of those contributors. And of course, it's all just personal opinion. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:07, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

In all my years of living in the US Martinevans123 I've never heard the term. It might be regional to some part of the country that I haven't visited though. I find it an interesting coincidence that the song was released a few months before the album that does mention bricks :-) That works backstory is interesting as well. MarnetteD|Talk 18:04, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey you. You can't suddenly hijack my early 1970s Memphis soul with early 1970s one-legged British prog rock, you know! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:40, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

List of current United States Senators

We have this Wikipedia article: List of current United States Senators. My question: for the article title, is the "S" of the word "Senators" supposed to be capitalized? Or should it be lower-case "s"? And what if there were an article titled "List of current United States Representatives"? What about the "R" in "Representatives"? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I was hoping United States Senate would spell it out, but it doesn't seem to. It capitalizes the words Senate and Senator pretty uniformly and I would just assume it's done so because they are titles (meaning the answer to your question would be "Yes"), but the article I linked also chooses to not capitalize president and vice-president, so now I am not so sure. :) Sorry! Matt Deres (talk) 23:05, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

See MOS:JOBTITLES. Short answer: no, it should not be capitalized. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:49, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Right, so it depends on how it is used: "Like most senators, Senator Cheatem is an incumbent." SinisterLefty (talk) 13:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but I am referring to an article title (as opposed to a complete sentence, which contains context). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I tried to move the article from List of current United States Senators (upper-case "S") to List of current United States senators (lower-case "s"). Wikipedia would not allow the change to go through. Does anyone know why? And how to correct that? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia likely has a bug and doesn't see that as a change. You will either need to change it to an intermediate name ("List of current US senators" ?), then change it to the name you want (which might run afoul of some limit on changing an article name too many times) or you could first create an article with the correct name, copy over the content, and change the article under the old name to a redirect. Unfortunately, this would leave the history with the old article, but at least it's not lost forever. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:56, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Or ask an admin to do it for you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

@Joseph A. Spadaro: Use requested moves to get the page moved if you cannot do it yourself. DO NOT COPY AND PASTE INTO A NEW TITLE. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I would argue that the cap form reflects the members of the proper noun/name "United States Senate" and should not be changed. Any supporters? Jmar67 (talk) 01:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. The long form would be "United States Senate senators", but that sounds rather redundant. "United States Senate members" would work, but is longer than needed. So, we omit the "Senate" from the long form to get "United States senators". SinisterLefty (talk) 03:18, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

For that matter, "United States Senator" can be regarded as a proper noun, and who's to say it isn't? I don't think it's worth worrying about. Jmar67 (talk) 09:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

It is worth "worrying about", because there are several other related articles. And I am trying to make them all consistent. Articles about "federal" senators; "federal" representatives; state senators; state representatives; etc. So, it's really more than just this one article of concern. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

It would only be a proper noun when used as the title of an individual senator, such as "United States Senator Dewey Cheatem". SinisterLefty (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. In this case, it should be lower-case "s". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:58, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

One problem with lowercase is the implication that the list includes the senators of the individual state legislatures. You really ought to leave it the way it is. Jmar67 (talk) 01:22, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@Jmar67: As I stated above: It is worth "worrying about", because there are several other related articles. And I am trying to make them all consistent. Articles about "federal" senators; "federal" representatives; state senators; state representatives; etc. So, it's really more than just this one article of concern. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@Jmar67: Also ... according to your rationale (for "federal" senators) ... the state senators article would also include an upper-case "S". No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

This appears to be an MOS:JOBTITLES issue and should be further discussed there. I don't think there is a clear-cut case for lowercase, given the proper-noun question. Jmar67 (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I am starting a discussion there: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Job titles: upper-case or lower-case "s" for "Senators". But, if it's not a clear-cut case for lower-case (as you state), then equally it is not a clear-cut case for upper-case, either. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

This nitpicky stuff reminds me of a few years ago when someone was arguing that the Declaration of Independence article should be titled "united States" etc. Why? Because of the wording in the document, in which the old style of capitalizing all nouns was still being employed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:40, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:38, 4 July 2019 (UTC)