Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 July 3

Language desk
< July 2	<< Jun | July | Aug >>	July 4 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 3

Formerly known as

Is "née" used only for marital surname changes, or is it used for any kind of name change? Temerarius (talk) 05:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Meaning "born", and conventionally used for maiden names.[1] Also sometimes used for name changes.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

In French, the adjective née is strictly feminine singular. In English usage, this is not always strictly adhered to.  --Lambiam 08:34, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

né is sometimes seen in English for men but we hate to do anything consistently. Rmhermen (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

née when applied to men is an example of cultural ignorance. Another one: alumni when applied to a single person. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

As are references to men with "blonde" hair. 2A00:23C5:E117:6100:780B:1D64:F722:E876 (talk) 18:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I've never seen né in the wild. I didn't even know it existed until I tried to look up this question. Temerarius (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Of course, in English we also can omit the accents and write "ne" or "nee". Not that I've seen "ne" often. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 00:24, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Men don't usually have maiden names. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:29, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

No, but name changes for other reasons are far from rare. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:00, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

And I personally know of several married couples where the man changed his surname to the woman's, they adopted a hyphenated combination of both surnames, or they adopted a new single surname that contained elements of both.

Leaving aside modern customs, I believe that historically in the UK (and elsewhere?) men who married an heiress with no male siblings were sometimes required to adopt her family's surname as a condition of becoming the male heir and inheriting the family's assets, and sometimes titles that were not inheritable by females. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.56.20 (talk) 15:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

So how did this work exactly? Can the ancestral home be disposed of by writing a will or does it go together with the title? The husband would not acquire the title on the death of the holder - what are the rules for transmission? 92.19.172.90 (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

My limited understanding (I have learned a little about this from studying Heraldry, but am no kind of lawyer) is that it depended on contracts drawn up by the lawyers of the family and designed to preserve the family name, which would otherwise change to that of the 'marrying-in' husband. In some cases a title might be inheritable if this condition was met, otherwise it might become extinct, or pass to a distant male relative – different titles followed different rules, and of course Scotland had and has an entirely separate legal system to that of England & Wales. Adoption might also come into play.

Properties were sometimes entailed to prevent them from being sold outside the family, but there would usually be no link between a family's possession of 'the ancestral' (or any current) estate and any titles (remembering that the land-linked "Lord of the Manor" is not a peerage title), and landed families often did sell estates previously in their possession for centuries while retaining any peerage titles. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.56.20 (talk) 13:03, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Marriage was not a requirement, at least for the transfer of property; Valerie, Lady Meux had no heirs but had taken a shine to a dashing naval officer, Sir Hedworth Lambton, who on her death cheerfully eschewed his ancient aristocratic surname (of Lambton Worm fame) and became Sir Hedworth Meux so that he could inherit the Meux Brewery fortune and a big house in Hertfordshire. Alansplodge (talk) 16:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

In England the succession of an hereditary title (peerage or baronetcy) is defined in the instrument that created it; the holder has no discretion, and adoptees are excluded. (Things were looser in Scotland of old, but that was then.) As to property, I haven't read of contracts such as you describe, but there are many examples of wills with such clauses: "I leave my estate to N on condition that he legally adopt the name of Gambolputty von Iamnotabouttocopythewholething in lieu of (or in addition to) his present name." And sometimes the heir takes the name sua sponte as a show of continuity. —Tamfang (talk) 01:27, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

How many English words of each kind??

1. How many words in English have the letter J??
2. How many words in English have a G with a soft sound??

Georgia guy (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there can be definitive answers to these questions as the number of English words is not really set. Also, do loanwords count? Do words with a J that aren't pronounced in the usual manner count? For an example that would fit both questions: fjord. --Khajidha (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

In general, all words that are in standard dictionaries count. The thing I want to know is the ratio of words with soft G to words with J. Georgia guy (talk) 15:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

What about "gigawatt"? It has two accepted pronunciations, one with two hard "G"s and one with an initial soft "G". This would also apply to "GIF", but I'm not sure if you are counting acronyms. --Khajidha (talk) 15:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Gigawatt doesn't count because everyone today pronounces it with a hard g. Georgia guy (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Au contraire. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, that source is 35 years old and doesn't fit the restriction of "today".--Khajidha (talk) 15:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

What about "genre"? It is often pronounced more like "zhenre". That is different from the G in "gem". Is that a soft G?--Khajidha (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I would imagine a good guide to ratio would be the incidence of initial letters "ge-" and "gi-" to "j-". I'm heading over to OED to find out. 2A00:23C5:E117:6100:780B:1D64:F722:E876 (talk) 16:06, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Complicated by words like "gaol" and "margarine", which have soft-g pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

In the 1978 Oxford English Dictionary soft "g" has 433 hits. I particularly liked this trendy 1552 use of "gear":

Albes and other geir belonging to the afforesaid vestmentes.

"je-" and "ji-" have 178 hits - that's roughly 2 1/2 to 1. On the subject of the "Race to the bottom" the 1600 example for "jiggy-joggy" is

Faith, then..I'll go jiggy-joggy to London and be here in a trice, young Mistress.

-- 2a00:23c5:e117:6100:780b:1d64:f722:e876 (talk · contribs)

Jumping Jehoshaphat - that's two :-) MarnetteD|Talk 23:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The given names or abbreviations of Gerry and Jerry got me thinking and researching. Impression at this stage - Gerry is rarer than Jerry, but still exists. I have a friend called Gerry who insists on correcting people who get it wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 03:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

An old colleague of mine was named Gerry, pronounced identically to Gary (at least for people with the merry–Mary merger, which is most people, around here). Curious how your friend pronounces it. --Trovatore (talk) 03:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• Elbridge Gerry's surname had a hard G too, even though the eponymous gerrymander now has a soft G. But he lived quite a while ago. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Aside from the many "ge" words using a soft G, the term "jerry rigged" could have influenced the pronunciation of gerrymander. --Khajidha (talk) 15:52, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

That's in fact "jury rigged". 93.136.4.100 (talk) 20:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Both exist.--Khajidha (talk)\

Yes they do. Explanation:[3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Here in Australia, Gerry and Jerry are pronounced the same. Gary is different. HiLo48 (talk) 04:02, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's about location. I think his pronunciation was an idiosyncrasy (not necessarily his; could have been his parents'). He went by "Buzz". He said I could call him Gerry as long as I pronounced it Gary, which he admitted was contrary to the "rules of English". --Trovatore (talk) 04:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)