Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 June 20

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June 20

Himself >> themself(ves)

In "the good old days" we'd have written or spoken:

• "This order came from Headquarters, probably from the CEO himself".

Later we learned to allow at least the possibility of there being female CEOs, so it was:

• "... probably from the CEO him- or herself".

Now that plural pronouns are regularly being applied to single humans, where has this construction gone? Is it:

• "... probably from the CEO themself"? Or themselves?

Are "themself" and "themselves" recognised words? If not, what do we say now? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:08, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

According to Singular_they#Inflected_forms_and_derivative_pronouns both forms are acceptable (assuming that you know nothing about the CEO's gender). --Wrongfilter (talk) 03:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

JackofOz -- "Themselves" is of course a "recognized word" (it's the traditionally correct form), but it may not be fully suitable for singular use. "Themself" is a newer form, and some prescriptivists may disdain it, but it's fairly common in spoken language (in at least some English dialects), and is somewhat acceptable in many contexts. It's not purely a matter of gender, since "Ourself" also exists (and also "Yourself" in reference to plural "You", as in "So you guys did it yourself?", though that's harder to track)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:00, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

They are recognised words. I'm not keen on seeing the -selves versions treated as singular: it causes my parsing process to hesitate uncomfortably. Bazza (talk) 08:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Even "themself" is problematical, being composed of a plural part and a singular part. If ever there was a case for a separate genderless pronoun, this one should clinch it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 14:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, so "themself" would be the reflexive form of singular they, then? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Wakuran -- Sometimes it is, while other times it's the third person equivalent to informal colloquial 1st person "ourself" and 2nd. plural "yourself", as I already explained above. AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I see no reason for "themself" or "ourself". The so-called "singular they" is still construed as plural if a verb has to agree with it: "Someone committed this crime and now they're hiding behind legal technicalities." Using "themselves" is consistent with this. --174.95.83.56 (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

174.95.83.56 -- Whether or not you personally see any "need" for "ourself", "themself", and plural "yourself", it's a simple fact that they're fairly commonly used in informal speech in a number of English dialects, and increasingly in writing. AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

And they have been used since the days of Middle English.^[1][2][3]  --Lambiam 14:09, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

174.95.83.56, do you see a reason for "yourself"? The so-called "singular you" is still construed as plural if a verb has to agree with it: "You alone committed this crime and now you're hiding behind legal technicalities." — Kpalion^(talk) 09:17, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

what does "borrowed under the logic" means?

Would you please tell me what does it mean?

"That which you call "self" serves as nothing more than a mask to cover your own being. In this era of ready made 'truths', "self" is just something used to preserve those positive emotions that you occasionally feel. Another possibility is that self is a concept you conveniently borrowed under the logic that it would endow you with some sense of strength..."

-- 5.117.121.153 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:47, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The citation is parsed strangely, If you divide the sentence by sub-clauses, it would rather be something like "Another possibility is that - self is a concept you borrowed - under the logic that - it would endow you with a sense of strength." 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The structure is the same as in this sentence: "Your gun is a penis substitute that you bought under the pretext it would protect your family."  --Lambiam 20:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)