Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 August 28

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 28

Dutch long vowels

Does Dutch have a phonemic vowel length? All IPA transcriptions in Dutch I have seen include a length colon in long vowels, so I interpreted that Dutch would have phonemic vowel length. Is it so that length is primary distinction and the long/short vowels also happen to differ in quality? If it is so, why does Dutch not double vowels in open syllables if the vowel length is phonemic in standard Dutch? And are consonants ever doubled after oe and eu? --40bus (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Confusingly, in common Dutch parlance the lax monophthongs (/ɑ/, /ɛ/, /ɪ/, /ɔ/, /ʏ/) are called korte klinkers (literally "short vowels"), while the tense monophthongs (/aː/, /eː/, /i/, /oː/, /y/) are called lange klinkers (literally "long vowels"). (I'm skipping the /øː/, denoted by the digraph ⟨eu⟩, and the /u/, denoted by the digraph ⟨oe⟩, which have no "short" counterparts.) While some of the tense monophthongs tend to be realized longer than their lax counterparts, this is almost never phonemically distinguishing. When realized in syllable-final and unstressed positions they are often not actually longer than the lax monophthongs. In some onomatopoeias and non-native words, however, phonemically long vowels occur: bleeting sheep say /bɛː/ or /mɛː/, and the word zone is pronounced (by some) as /ˈzɔːnə/, contrasting with the pronunciation /ˈzɔ.nə/ of the word zonnen.

In the orthography, consonants are never doubled after ⟨oe⟩ or ⟨eu⟩. For example, the word zoenen is hyphenated as zoe-nen.  --Lambiam 19:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Why ⟨oe⟩ and ⟨eu⟩ don't have lax counterparts? --40bus (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

IIRC, that's because they evolved from diphthongs that were monophthongised. That in contrast to the other monophthongs, which evolved from long/short pairs. In modern dialects where some diphthongs get monophthongised (Antwerpish comes to mind), those are long too, giving phonemic vowel length. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

They are called long (tense) and short (lax), mostly because that's what they historically were. Today, in most dialects, any length difference is tiny, not consistent and not phonemic. I'm not sure why some people insist on putting length marks in. The exceptions mentioned above by Lambiam are normally lax vowels that may be long in some onomatopoeias and non-native words.

Open syllables, which always have a tense vowel, have no following consonant cluster, so there's more time available for the vowel than in closed syllables. That alone makes the tense vowels on average a bit longer than the lax vowels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Are there any words in Dutch which end in short stressed vowels? --40bus (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes: bah, hè, joh, huh.  --Lambiam 09:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Taking "short" in the sense of lax (i.e., /ɑ, ɛ, ɪ, ɔ, ʏ/), only a handful of onomatopoeias, interjections and loans, no regular words: bè (sound of a sheep), bah (exclamation of disgust), hè (exclamation of surprise). In word-final position, they tend to be pronounced a bit longer than otherwise, but that's nothing phonemic. Otherwise, a word-final vowel in Dutch is a schwa, tense vowel or diphthong, all of which can occur in final position.

Note that this is all about Standard Dutch, i.e. that variety of Dutch that for each phoneme uses that phone that the fewest native speakers object against. A kind of median Dutch. Nobody actually speaks Standard Dutch. Some dialects differ on these points. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Nevalı Çori

I watched a documentary about Göbekli Tepe mentioning Nevalı Çori and noting that the name translates as "valley of the plague". Firstly, is that an accurate translation? Google Translate didn't help. Secondly, if so, why was it named that? -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 19:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't find anything that might answer you. But usually prehistoric sites (where there is no evidence of their historical name) are simply referred to by the modern name of the locality. ColinFine (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The Turkish name is Nevali Çori, with a dotted ⟨i⟩, so the first component should not be analyzed like neva + -lı, which would mean "harmonious". Neither word is found in Turkish dictionaries, so this must be a Kurdish name.  --Lambiam 12:04, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Google Translate turns Kurmanji newala into "valley", but doesn't know çorî.  --Lambiam 12:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

According to this source (in Turkish) the word çorî refers to a specific tomato disease, not the Black Death.  --Lambiam 12:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

What's interesting also is that in the Kurmanji Wikipedia article for it, ku:Newala Çorî, there are numerous possible spellings given for the second word: Çorî, Çorê, and Çolê. This might help in pinpointing what the aforementioned disease is. In the meantime, the article title also does seem to confirm that Nevali probably comes from Newala. GalacticShoe (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, Çolê appears to mean "desert" (see ku:Çolê Erebistanê), although it is entirely possible that this is purely a coincidence. GalacticShoe (talk) 14:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I would guess the root of that word for desert would be just "çol" (cognate with Turkish çöl), and that the "-ê" in "Çolê Erebistanê" is the ezafe affix (just as the final vowel transcribed as "-a" in "Newala"), whereas the final "-i" in "Çori" must be part of the word stem itself. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

If the Turkish name has a dotted ⟨i⟩, then what language is our title of Nevalı Çori in? 82.166.199.42 (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

That's a fair question, since the Turkish article is Nevali Çori. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The form with "ı" appears in much of the English-language scientific literature on the archaeological site. It might be a pseudo-Turkish hypercorrection, but it's entirely possible that there have been alternative forms with ı and i in Turkish – given that the name was originally just an inofficial name used by the local Kurdish villagers for an obscure stretch of land. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

This article in Turkish (J. Notroff, O. Dietrich, J. Peters, N. Pöllath, Ç. Köksal-Schmidt (2015). "Uygarlığın Doğuşunda. Neolitik şölenlerin izleri. Göbekli Tepe – Dünyanın En Eski Tapının Alanın ve Besin Üretiminin Başlangıcı", Aktüel Arkeoloji 46, pp. 26-43), whose authors were involved in the excavations at Göbekli Tepe, uses Nevalı Çori. It is a rare exception, possibly translated from an earlier English version of the text.  --Lambiam 07:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I've messaged Jens Notroff to see if he might shed some light on this. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

OK! Jens Notroff says: "Nevalı" would be correct (the "i" without the dot in Turkish pronounced "shorter", similar to the "e" in the English "environment" for instance). PS: The spelling might, on the other hand, elude proper modern Turkish spelling rules though. It is often translated as "valley of the plague", but this comes with a certain uncertainty. Personally, I could easily imagine the original toponym coming from a local dialect or even older name which simply was "Turkish-zed" in spelling (but that's as much speculation on my part as the above mentioned translation). --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

"Nevalı" would be correct in which language? As pointed out by Lambiam above, the overwhelming majority of Turkish sources, such as those cited in tr:Nevali Çori, all use a dotted ⟨i⟩ in the name of the site. 82.166.199.42 (talk) 17:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

"Nevalı" would be the correct spelling in Turkish orthography if the word had been formed from the noun neva by adding the mutable suffix -lı/-li/-lu/-lü. However, the term is a loan from Kurmanji newala, which means that the Turkish vowel harmony rules do not apply. Compare the definitive accusative amirali of the Turkish noun amiral, a loan from French.  --Lambiam 21:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Again from Jens Notroff: I have read the latest commentary and think I understand where the confusion is coming from. Neither "Nevali" nor "Nevalı" are Turkish words. My best guess would be that "Nevalı" simply is an onomatopoeic transcription of the local toponym, given that the similar pronounced "Newala" indeed is a local word for a valley. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 22:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

So there seem to be two competing transcriptions of the Kurdish name into Turkish orthography: Nevali, preferred by Turkish archaeologists; and Nevalı, preferred by non-Turkish archaeologists? 82.166.199.42 (talk) 10:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Which Turkish archeologists are quoted? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Haluk Berkmen, Serap Özdöl, Bahattin Çelik, Mustafa Güler, Gül Güler, Adnan Mısır, Ahmet Kartalkanat; these are the references at tr:Nevali Çori, and they all spell its name with a dotted ⟨i⟩ 82.166.199.42 (talk) 14:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, I guess the point is that it's not a Turkish word anyway, and whichever i is used is just a transliteration choice. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 19:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Dutch pronunciation

While lecturing in Holland early in his career, J. Robert Oppenheimer received the nickname "Opje" from his Dutch students. This nickname followed him back to the US, where it was anglicized to "Oppie".

How would a Dutch person pronounce "Opje"? Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:E23B (talk) 22:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Pending an answer from an actual Dutch speaker, it would (in my limited anglophone exposure to spoken Dutch) be pronounced "Op-yeh", with the emphasis on the first syllable (rhyming with "hop") and the second very short. I understand the second element is an affectionate term roughly equivalent to "little". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 01:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Here you can hear the Dutch word topje pronounced by a native speaker. Just delete the initial /t/ and you get /ˈɔpjə/. In colloquial speech, Dutch speakers will turn Opje into a more affectionate Oppie, so this transformation is not necessarily an anglicization. See -ie on Wiktionary, and compare names formed like Jopie instead of Joopje.  --Lambiam 11:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks all. Oppenheimer's biographies are fairly clear that the name Opje followed him from NL to America before morphing into "Oppie". For example, his graduate students in California in the 1930s called him Opje. I liked the audio clip. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:E23B (talk) 00:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Old Persian cuneiform translation/transliteration

What are the Old Persian cuneiform names for Gate of All Nations and Daeva in plain text?

livius.org provides the English translations, transliterations and images of relevant Achaemenid royal inscriptions, however they don’t provide the plain text version, and their contact page states that they can’t take email enquiries. The images are kinda low quality as well. No other websites have been much help, and yes, cuneiform characters is in Unicode, and is and can be displayed on relevant Wikipedia articles.

I would try to convert the transliteration back myself, but I don’t have any knowledge of the script nor do I want to sacrifice accuracy. Much appreciated, and please ping me. Fork99 (talk) 23:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, the XPa inscription and XPh inscription might be your best friend to help you answer my question. Fork99 (talk) 00:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about all the replies, also what is the Old Persian cuneiform name for Pasargadae? I’m not too sure in which inscriptions this city’s name appears in. Fork99 (talk) 00:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)