Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 May 28

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May 28

Histoire des ducs de Normandie et des rois d'Angleterre

I was just reading about the imprisonment and death of Maud de Braose. Some parts are vague and could perhaps be cleared up by carefully reading the source. Unfortunately it's in Old French (or Middle French, not sure).

• "He did not allow them to have any more meat." I'm sure that meat (viande in the source) means "food", an obsolete sense of the word, and I have edited the article accordingly.
• "found sitting straight, bent against the wall." So in what sense straight?

Can you help me read this part of the source?

toute droite seans, fors tant qu'ele clinoit arriere sour le pis son fill, comme morte feme. Li fils, ki mors estoit autresi, seoit toz drois, fors tant que il clinoit deviers [footnote: Arrière encontre] la paroi comme uns mors hom; si li avoit la mere par destrece toutes [footnote: La m. t.] les joes mangies.

 Card Zero  (talk) 11:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I have a "Dictionnaire de l'ancien français jusqu'au milieu du XIV sièecle" by A.J. Greimas, but very little knowledge of that form of the language. Viande is defined as "1. Ce quit sert à vivre, nourriture 2. Ensemble des aliments 3. Provisions". The definition of droit seems to be similar to modern French, and doesn't have any detail which would clarify what "sitting straight" or "sitting right" would specifically mean. AnonMoos (talk) 12:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to find this passage about cheeses in the original text. Searching for various possible keywords hasn't revealed it to me yet, I hope it isn't made up. Wait, here it is on page 111. But does it really suggest the besieged home d'Engletierre should hurl the cheeses as weapons, rather than eat them?  Card Zero  (talk) 12:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think the word jeter leaves no room for doubt on that point: she said she'd have thrown them at the enemy. But I hope you're not taking her words too seriously – she was using humour to make a point. --Antiquary (talk) 14:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Jeter is glossed by a footnote as ruer, presumably because "throw out" sounds like throwing away the cheese. I wondered if maybe a final stage in cheesemaking could be to "throw out" the cheese from a container in which it was maturing. Then the part involving lasser ("then if again they may not be already tired"?) could be saying that if they aren't yet tired (of cheese) they will find cheese ready day after day to be thrown out (of its containers, and eaten). But I suppose I'm stretching to make it sensible.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

A well-thrown cheese could easily knock a man out, or over. DuncanHill (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I was nearly squashed by a metric ton of cheese once. This begins to look more plausible.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

In the 19th century Thomas Wright also understood the throwing to have been done over the castle walls. --Antiquary (talk) 16:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Cooper's Hill Cheese-Rolling and Wake is loosely relevant 82.166.199.42 (talk) 08:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

That passage is translated by H. W. C. Davis here:

...sitting upright except that she leaned back against her son like a dead woman. The son was dead in like manner, except that he was leaning back against the wall; and his cheeks had been gnawed by his mother in her anguish.

Doubtless his translation is authoritative, even if he has left out the odd word here and there. --Antiquary (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I think word-for-word it's "the son, who was dead similarly, sat entirely upright, except that he leaned against the wall as a dead man". Thanks for the reference, I'm using it.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

English language construct where adverb position matters

As far as I understand, English normally allows adverbs to be placed before or after the verb (and object) e.g. I carefully read it. vs I read it carefully.

However,

• I stupidly did it = It was stupid to do it, and

• I did it stupidly = I did it in a stupid manner.

Is there a reason for this anomaly, and a term for it?

Besides only, are there similar examples?

Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 22:51, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

For positioning of English adverbs see here. Doesn't quite answer your question, but suggests the situation is rather more nuanced than your initial comment would suggest. DuncanHill (talk) 23:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Cmglee -- Your first sentence is basically synonymous with "Stupidly, I did it", which reveals "stupidly" in that case to be a "disjunct" or "sentence adverb", which does not directly modify the verb, but comments on the whole situation. Word-order can help indicate a verb-modifying adverb vs. a sentence-modifying adverb, but it's not really the crucial factor in itself. AnonMoos (talk) 01:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't interpret your examples in the same way. "I carefully read it" suggests to me that care is being taken with the physical object, as with an old book that is falling apart."I read it carefully" suggests that particular attention is being paid to the words. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 05:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I stupidly did it = I was stupid when I did it.
I carefully read it = I was careful when I read it.
However, in both cases this may also apply to the manner in which; the distinction in senses between before and after is only a tendency. In "I carefully studied the principles by which the Bank of England had been managed from its institution ",^[1] surely the author did not mean that these principles might suffer from careless handling.  --Lambiam 07:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. My interpretation of the example sentences applies only to those sentences. It should not be taken as a general guide to how to interpret adverbial expressions. English is a complex, messy language. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much, everyone. Very enlightening! cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 06:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I would see the first one as a verbal shortcut from the proper, full sentence which would be "I stupidly went and did it...", with the adverb attached to the verb "went". In written English (other than dialogue) it would most likely be given in full, but in spoken English the "went and" is commonly dropped. MapReader (talk) 06:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)