Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 September 21

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September 21

Meaning of /L in German

In an old German academic journal, the following occurs:- Unter Mitwirkung der Deutschen Physikalischen Gesellschaft herausgegeben von E. GRÜNEISEN, Marburg / L. M. PLANCK, Berlin. or "Published with the collaboration ...... " What does the / L. after the town name signify? Dionne Court (talk) 13:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

"Marburg an der Lahn, as opposed to Marburg an der Drau (which was the German name of Maribor in Slovenia). It's a similar naming convention as still used in "Frankfurt/M" for "Frankfurt am Main". Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Not to be mixed up with "Frankfurt/O"? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Although locally they seem to prefer the spelling "Frankfurt (O)" there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:00, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you Fut.Perf. Dionne Court (talk) 00:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The King's Joke

What did King Charles say in his speech at the French Senate today that made the lawmakers laugh? (YouTube clip at 11:25) Something to do with the Rugby World Cup, but it defeated my schoolboy French and the translator didn't bother as the rest of that segment was in English. Alansplodge (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: "pas de coups bas, et que le meilleur gagne!" ("no dirty tricks, and may the best win"). [1] Bazza (talk) 18:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

His accent is quite atrocious, but it's also translated here. [2] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:32, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both - his Dinner for One gag at the Bundestag was better. Not sure if his accent is much worse than Macron's English but at least he made the effort. Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

Charles also seems to have made some questionable choices for his accent, such as using the "poetic pronunciation" of French with (some of) the final vowel sounds pronunced. In standard French, it's only done in poetry, singing or occasionally rapping (I guess), and it sounds strangely forced in a basic conversation, particularly when his accent already is quite thick. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

"Choices for his accent"? What planet are you living on? People learning a foreign language don't "choose an accent". They struggle with alien grammar and syntax, and with sounds that not only can they not make but they can't even hear in the first place. I daresay you have no difficulty at all choosing the correct accent for every occasion in the litany of languages you say you speak, but have some mercy on the rest of us who a) are at least making the effort and b) find it really fucking hard. DuncanHill (talk) 11:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I suspect that pronouncing the final vowel sounds is a fairly common error for English speakers reading a French text. Personally, I always thought there should have been a French version of Professor Henry Higgins, who would teach the French to pronounce their word-endings properly and make it easier for the rest of us, but that seems infinitely improbable. Alansplodge (talk) 14:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Conversely, when my Father was teaching numeracy and literacy to British Army recruits of diverse disabilities (e.g. dyslexia and dyscalculia), backgrounds (e.g. little formal education) and nationalities, one of his pupils had the whole unit stumped. This gentleman was half English and spoke it well, but was raised in France and his English spelling was weirdly poor. Finally they realised that, knowing a word ended in a vowel sound, he assumed from French orthography that it must be followed by some consonant or else it would be silent. 51.198.107.25 (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

English learners of French shouldn't really have any difficulties with avoiding pronouncing the final vowel in gagne, I believe. The pronunciation of vowel sounds like 'ue' and 'eu' would be affected by accent, but pronouncing the final -e in gagne seems more like a deliberate choice, or merely a misunderstanding of French orthography. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:31, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Contrariwise, I find it impossible to pronounce gn without a hint of a following vowel. —Tamfang (talk) 22:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, can't be done. DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

French pronunciation has probably not been entirely static over the last century, and His Majesty is an elderly man who doubtless learned French over 60 years ago, probably from French-speaking English teachers who themselves learned French some time before that.

Also, he's not trying to pass for French. Everyone knows he's not, and expects him to speak it as all we English do – imperfectly. His object was to communicate, and I doubt his minor flaws were an impediment to that. 51.198.107.25 (talk) 23:00, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

You've probably heard the old story about when JFK said "Ich bin ein Berliner" that he was technically saying he was a type of pastry. I asked a native-German colleague about this once, and he said it was no big deal, because "we knew what he meant." So even if the language wasn't perfect, the effort was appreciated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

This is interesting, because that story is not true. Double sharp (talk) 08:06, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

So my German colleague was just humoring me. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:21, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The linked article says that Berliners didn't use the term to refer to a doughnut, but also that it was so used in other regions of Germany (which even Berliners would likely have been aware of). Thus the possible double meaning would doubtless have occurred even to some Berliners, although they wouldn't have interpreted it as a "mistake" on Kennedy's part. Elsewhere in Germany the double meaning would be more obvious, so even at the time jokes about it likely circulated, and some Germans, particularly children, might have taken them at face value. 51.198.107.25 (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Of course there's no big deal about Berliner having two meanings; also the Flying Hamburger was named so by the Germans themselves, with no pun being intended. 51.52.167.242 (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Technically, it's neither flying, nor a hamburger. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:12, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

As a footnote, this French news video of the speech has eliceted only complementary comments from Francophones praising his French; "Bravo l’anglois! C’est sympathique de faire un discours en français, l’accent est bon en plus!" and "Charles III parle très bien français bravo!".

However, I suspect that Samuel Johnson's maxim has come into play here and it was "...like a dog's walking on his hinder legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all". Alansplodge (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

(1) Dr Johnson was comparing (with his classic Tory Political Incorrectness) a dog's bipedialism with a woman preaching a sermon.

(2) What's difficult for English speakers in the first place, is pronouncing E's at the end of a word, which is not normally done even in highly formal English speech, such as reading Shakespeare or the 1611 Bible aloud. Once having learnt to pronounce terminal E's in French poetry and song, it's understandable that (forgetting, or perhaps never learning, the distinction between French and English usage) some Anglophones trying to speak good formal French would keep the terminal E's even in spoken prose. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)