Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 April 22

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April 22

Greek letters and origin

Are there any Greek letters or letter combinations that are more prevalent in some of these types of words than in others?

1: Native words.

2: Older loans, which refers to loans borrowed into Greek back when each letter and diphthong still had its Ancient Greek pronunciation.

3: Newer loans, which refers to loans borrowed into Greek after each letter and letter combination had already shifted to its modern Greek pronunciation. Primal Groudon (talk) 13:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Generally, letters and letter combinations like ⟨ω, η, υ, ει, οι, αι, αυ, ευ, γγ⟩ are indicators for a native word, because the sounds they represent have more 'straightforward' spellings, which loanwords generally use. To an extent the same goes for ⟨δ, θ, γ, ψ⟩, as their sounds are rare in the vocabulary that Greek borrows. On the other hand, ⟨τζ⟩ and, especially if initial, ⟨μπ, ντ, γκ⟩, are indicators for a loanword. --Theurgist (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

English ⟨ee⟩ tends to be transcribed in proper nouns as ⟨η⟩, though (for example Ληντς for Leeds and Στηλ for Steele), but neither this nor other conventions are set rules. And occasionally, for unclear reasons, the conventional Greek transcription of a name does not suggest its original pronunciation.  --Lambiam 16:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The Greek Wikipedia's article about the city is at Λιντς, while bearers of the surname are given as both Στιλ and Στηλ, the latter article also citing Στιλ as an alternative. I did not say those are absolute rules; variations exist especially for languages such as English and French which themselves spell those sounds variously, and less for others. --Theurgist (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

By “the sounds they represent” and “their sounds”, do you mean their current or original/ancient sounds? Primal Groudon (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Current. --Theurgist (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Theurgist: Now I'm curious: are there native Greek words with the loanword-indicating combinations you mentioned? Double sharp (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Initial μπ, ντ, γκ indicate voiced stops [b],[d], [g], but initial Ancient Greek stops became fricatives. AnonMoos (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

There are a number of native Modern Greek words with initial μπ, ντ, γκ; I believe most of them are the result of fusion of Ancient Greek initial "εν-" with a following plosive, as in μπαίνω < ἐμπαίνω < ἐμ-βαίνω 'enter'. Other examples are μπάζω, μπερδεύω, μπήγω, μπλέκω, μπορώ, μπροστά; ντόπιος, ντρέπομαι, ντροπή, ντύνω; γκαμήλα, γκαρδιακός, γκαστρώνω, γκρεμός and others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I should have thought of these common words μπορώ and ντύνω/ντύνομαι – although sometimes the most common things are not representative because they are also the most irregular ones. And is there anything native with ⟨τζ⟩? Even τζατζίκι is in fact a loan from Turkish, and the cluster wasn't used in Ancient Greek. --Theurgist (talk) 12:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this corresponds to your 1: or 2:, but some combinations are thought to be characteristic of the Pre-Greek substrate. I have previously read somewhere that this includes the 'νθ' ['nth'] combination found in place names of pre-Greek origin such as 'Κορινθος' ['Corinth']. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The onsets κτ-, χτ-, πτ-, φτ-, χθ- and φθ- signal that a modern Greek word is inherited from Ancient Greek.  --Lambiam 13:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Do initial χτ φτ exist? (None in my dictionary.) In all such sequences I know of, they match in voice and aspiration. (There are also a few words beginning βδ and one rare γδ!) I imagine that χθ φθ exist because the aspiration was considered to apply to the cluster as a whole. —Tamfang (talk) 03:29, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

χτ- and φτ- onsets are frequent in Modern Greek, but they are typically derived from either κτ-/πτ- or χθ-/φθ- respectively in Ancient Greek. There was a general rule of dissimilation where clusters of either two aspirates or two plain voiceless plosives were changed to these fricative+plosive pairs. Examples with χτ- in Modern Greek: χτες 'yesterday', χτενίζω 'comb', χτίζω 'build' etc (some of these have alternative spellings with either χθ- or κτ- reflecting the etymology); examples with φτ-: φτιάχνω 'make', φτάνω 'arrive', φτερό 'wing', etc. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks! (Likewise for your remarks on μπ, ντ, γκ.) —Tamfang (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Medial geminates do not match in aspiration -- see Bartholomae's law... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I notice that all six of those combinations have a dental plosive as the second element. Is that the only type of initial plosive combination possible? Primal Groudon (talk) 03:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Ancient Greek phonology#Onset says yes, in Ancient Greek: Six stop clusters occur. All of them agree in voice-onset time, and begin with a labial or velar and end with a dental. Thus, the clusters /pʰtʰ kʰtʰ pt kt bd ɡd/ are allowed. Double sharp (talk) 05:28, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

New Deal protest sign

hello, on this sign, why is a word ("government") written that way? (reverse N/Cyrillic И (?)) ? Thank you everyone in advance Aecho6Ee (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Substituting in a few similar looking Cyrillic characters is sometimes used in graphic design to give a Russian flavour; e.g. the cover of "Superman: Red Son", about an alternate comic book world where baby Superman lands in the USSR and is raised by Russian peasants. Perhaps in the context of not accepting "government relief", the suggestion is that government relief is a Russian or (in 1940) Communist concept.

Or it's a typo. 91.194.221.225 (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in a literal sense, since the sign is evidently hand-written. Semi-literacy is possible, but unlikely since the short statement contains 4 correctly-written 'Ns' preceding the one in question. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

They missed the obvious chance, though, to write GOVEЯИMEИT. Mistakenly copying the letter in a mirrored form seems more likely.  --Lambiam 15:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

For the low-point of pseudo-Cyrillic, see the name of the Paul McCartney album CHOBA B CCCP as released in the U.S. and U.K., where they fake-Cyrillic'ed an actual Cyrillic phrase! AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the letters are stenciled: if you look closely, you'll see that the "S"s of THIS and IS are completely identical, including slight serifs that would be quite unlikely in freehand lettering. It's therefore possible that the stencil for the second N in GOVERNMENT got turned around by accident and by the time the sign-painter noticed, it was too late and/or the sign-painter didn't care enough to fix it. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Good solution! --142.112.220.50 (talk) 02:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)