Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 January 31

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January 31

The term "The Old Man" for the 30 yo captain in "Das Boot" - mistranslation?

Apparently, in the German war movie "Das Boot" in the English version, the captain is called by the crew "The Old Man" (see en article). I looked on the web and found a part of the original German book (used for the movie) from Lothar-Günther Buchheim in the English translation, where the same English term is used. In the German original, the respective term is "Der Alte" (literally "The Old", hence without "Man"). As we are dealing with the military, hierarchy is (abstractly regarded) far more important than age - what I mean is, in German the term "Der Alte" has (which is a subtle, but clear distinction) the connotation of "the eldest man on board" or "the boss", while the aspect of age is clearly ranked lower than hierachy. Hence, one could say that the term "Der Alte" is more of an informal rank expression than it refers to age. This even more so, as the term "The Old Man", literally translated to German as "Der alte Mann", would clearly have a strong connotation of weakness (due to age), would hence also be regarded as disrespectful, and thus would definitely not be used by a crew for their 30 year old captain (which was a typical age). To emphasize this: If one refers to a man of higher age in civil life in German (today, but probably in WWII as well), to literally call him or speak about him as "Der alte Mann" is close to an insult, suitable would be "Der ältere Herr" or so. Differently said, unless there would be some special, e.g. historical meaning in English to "The Old Man" in a military sense - which I do not know as a German - I assume that the expression was just badly translated to E|nglish long time ago. Does all this make sense, or did I make a logical mistake? Pittigrilli (talk) 17:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In the British military, "old man" is common affectionate nickname for a unit leader, for example:

Squadron Leader R. A. Newbury D.F.C. and Bar took over command of No. 610 'County of Chester' (F) Squadron in January 1944. He remained commanding officer until February 1945. During his tenure as the 'old man', the squadron was involved heavily involved in anti-diver patrols. [1]

It's also worth mentioning that "old man" is also British slang which can mean either a father or husband of whatever age; see our Old man page. Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The only times I have heard this in the British military is to refer to the senior person (captain/commanding officer) not related to age (or weakness). MilborneOne (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it means more like "the guv". Everything's relative of course, and in wartime the one with most experience may not be oldest. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that it is used in military language is enough to prove me wrong (with the above statement of mistranslation). Thank you very much for the explanations. 19:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC) /later added signature: Pittigrilli (talk) 20:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Also "the Old" is not a possible usage in conventional English, as 'old' can only function as an adjective, which needs a noun to relate to. The irony inherent in the senior member of a military unit being under 30 and being called "the Old Man" has been well known since at least World War 1 (where it particularly applied in the early Air services).

Another similar BrE informal title in civilian life is "the Gaffer" which derives from 'godfather, 'grandfather' or both. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

You can use "the old" to refer to a class of people: "State may close Ahtanum View, prison for the old and infirm".^[2]  --Lambiam 22:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Though not to an individual: but yes, I was being imprecise. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

"And once/nineteen, the youngest ensign in his class,/he was "the old man" of a gunboat on the Yangtze"--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

There is The Oldie, which, though a magazine, is named after its (supposed) typical readership. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 17:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes, so there is. Although everything's relative. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation of zoo- words

(This is about words such as "zooplankton" that start with the Greek prefix zoo- meaning animal.)

Is it common today for people unfamiliar with these words to pronounced them zoo and not the prescribed zoh-oh?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:36, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

zoo-, zooplankton in Wiktionary do not mention a "zoo" pronunciation. zoology does:

The pronunciation in /zu-/ has often received negative comment, but has nevertheless become very common, especially in British English.

zoological has:

(US) (non-standard) IPA(key): /zuəˈlɑd͡ʒɪkəl/

so maybe it is common with familiar words.

--Error (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Very common in Australia, even by ABC personalities. Much regretted by older listeners. Doug butler (tal k)

The word "zoological" is or at least was normally pronounced "zoh-oh...". The word comes from two parts.[3] When "zoological gardens" evolved into "zoo", I suppose it could have ben pronounced "zo-oh", but just plan "zoo" resulted instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In some older publications and dictionaries, such words were spelled with a diaeresis, e.g. "zoölogical", to mark the pronunciation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The "New Yorker" magazine still uses that diacritic... AnonMoos (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No, they don't. You're probably thinking of the one they use in "cooperate". --142.112.220.136 (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It's the same diacritic. Why would they use it "coöperate" and not in "zoölogy"? — Kpalion^(talk) 10:06, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, but apparently they don't. Alansplodge (talk) 12:07, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

However, this 1920 book does. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe their OCR erased it. I tried to look at the original page but I don't have a login. --Error (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)