Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 July 23

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July 23

Moth's legs stuck together

We just saved a hawk moth that got stuck in a web, but its legs are stuck together and we can't free it with a pin. It seems to be giving up the will to live - does anyone know how we can free it? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no way to save it. The spider's toxins have already killed it, unless you just seen it hit that spider's webbing. As soon as a spider detects prey, it'll secure it, and poison it. 205.240.146.58 01:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

See the spider article for more info. 205.240.146.58 01:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

We rescued it before the spider ever got there. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just curious - Why? Saving the moth harms the spider...let nature do its thing. SteveBaker 13:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

My mother had already saved it, and frankly, given I mentioned above that we have already rescued it, that is a both unhelpful and stupid answer to the question I posed. Why do you bother to hang around here? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 13:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I have to tend to agree with SteveBaker and there is no need to insult the man. Why interfere? It's just a moth. If the spider dies as a consequence of not getting a meal is that a better consequence? Perhaps saved as moths are closely related to butterflies and they enjoy some of their reputation, whereas spiders carry a more villianous popular cultural stigma? Moths can be regarded as pests, however spiders serve a useful function in regulation of insect populations. I however am a more equal opportunity bug squisher. Everything dies. Lanfear's Bane

Perhaps you were not listening in your arrogance, perhaps in your eagerness to berate me you missed the crucial fact for which I was berating SteveBaker for having ignored in HIS eagerness to be heartless. The moth had already been removed from the web. Should I just let a creature die because that's what would have happened had my mother not intefered? Fortunately for it, I am not cruel, and I did manage to unstick its legs. Please read questions before answering what you think was asked. The world has enough unkindnesses without your kneejerk malice too. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

First you say 'we' removed it then you say it was your mother removed it and now it is a little hard to tell who 'saved' it. We were simply asking, why bother interfere in this natural process? I don't feel that is unreasonable to ask or that it warrants such an outburst when we simply enquired into the background decisions of your actions, we were not attacking your choice. Lanfear's Bane

I was actually, genuinely, curious as to what thinking went into doing that - perhaps our OP would be kind enough to ask his/her Mom? Thnx. SteveBaker 21:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I too would like to know what the OP's mother thought she was doing by rescuing the moth. In the absence of any such reply, however, perhaps I could attempt a response. Isn't it instinctive to want to help a creature in apparent distress, particularly (and here I think Lanfear's Bane is spot on) one with a relatively benign image like a moth? To be honest, I would probably have done the same thing. If I saw a moth struggling to free itself from a spider's web, I would be unlikely to weigh up the relative desirability of trying to free it versus leaving it there so that the spider could eat it. Spiders are voracious, and if this one didn't manage to scoff this particular moth, the likelihood is that it wouldn't have to wait long for its next meal. At least, that's how my thinking would go. Lanfear is right - there is undoubtedly a pecking order among human concern for the welfare of animals, based in part on their image and appearance (see, for example, baby seal cubs). This may be unfair to those animals with an image problem, but it is completely natural and understandable. So, Dev920, I urge you and your mother not to fret at the attacks of SteveBaker and Lanfear's Bane. You did the right thing. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 21:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

So you can attest to the fact that this particular spider was overfed, wallowing in a web of abundance? How can you be so sure that the loss of this moth didn't finally do the poor spider in? I would have put the moth back in the web. 199.172.246.196 13:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the majority here, what's so special about a moth ? I suppose if it was an endangered species or something, it might be worth saving, but an ordinary moth ? They have such short life-spans it might have been due to die tonight anyway. Even a lepidopterist is most likely to save the moth from the spider only so they can mount it. That said, I would have offered advice on saving the moth, since that was the question, if I had any. Perhaps the original poster is a Jain, and so has a religious obligation to prevent harm from coming to any animal. StuRat 09:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I could not find instructions for mounting a moth, but perhaps it is similar to mounting a horse: {http://www.equusite.com/articles/riding/ridingMounting101.shtml}. Does a lepidopterist mount a moth from the left side? Edison 21:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry we couldn't answer your question in time, but glad you had a good result. Perhaps you might have had more success asking for help from lepidopterists at the Science Ref Desk. --Dweller 17:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, AshLin from Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lepidoptera here. Nice to know the moth is saved. Did your moth survive and fly off or did it die? Often, a spider scurries over and stings a prey and wanders off till its dead and then comes back later for further activities. Since you mentioned that the moth seemed to be dying, this spider's sting may have happened before you notice it. To revive a moth, there are so many types and so few examples to go bye, I guess all one can do is what you have done - release the moth from the clutches and allow it to recover. You could possibly offer it some sugar water, but more than that I cant think of anything else. Regards, AshLin 11:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I read last year about motorists who saw that a young bear in the mountains had killed a deer, and they stopped and threw tocks at the bear until he left. The deer was still dead. They did not eat it, so it seemed a bit pointless. That said, when I was young I once freed a bug of some sort from a spider web and it flew off. Edison 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the majority here. Although it might have been better to let nature take its course, once the moth was already saved helping the moth was the right thing to do morally. This philosophy is hardly new; it is even seen in some religions, Jainism notably. --S.dedalus 22:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

desiiiiiiiiiiiire (hot hot heat maybe)

there is a song and all I can understand of the lyrics is desiiiire said in a somewhat gay voice...the style resembles the band's hot hot heat kinda, it may be them... does anyone know which song is this?

it's like neo...something... kindof like lcd soundsystem...

Try the list of songs here. anonymous6494 02:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

thnx i'll check it out.

Used in House MD?? http://www.lyricwiki.org/Ryan_Adams:Desire. Lanfear's Bane

I need to learn fighting styles...

I need to learn fighting skills and techniques to increase my self-defense...to become awesome. So, is there a site where I could learn a lot of fighting styles and techniques?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.171.96 (talk • contribs)

Try Llap Goch, [1]. Adam Bishop 07:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Llap Goch?!?! I know what it is, of course (and it rated a spontaneous LOL, bordering on C|N>K, thank you very much), but: we have an article on it?!?! —Steve Summit (talk) 00:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You won't learn much from a website. If you don't live in Wales (or Lowestoft), try a local karate club.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Listen 70. you don't need to LEARN how to fight, it's all in your mind. I've been practicing TKD for 6 years now, and all the hard training, discipline, sore feet, hands and head mean nothing, all you have to do is BELIEVE! that you are the best fighter ever! go into your nearest dodgy Pub/Bar, tell your self :'As i walk the the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil for i am the meanest M**********r walking in the valley' go up to the hardest looking hombre you can find and tell him his mother 'does' sailors for fun, good luck tiger! Perry-mankster 08:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, Perry! That's surprisingly harsh, coming from you, if not an incitememt to commit an offense. Is there something happening here that I fail to understand? Bielle 14:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Use extreme care when it comes to martial arts! Find a good teacher; don’t try to teach yourself. Even practicing basic falls without training or proper safety equipment can get you seriously injured, or can injure whoever you’re working with. Personally I would suggest you find a good Aikido dojo. --S.dedalus 23:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I prefer my martial arts instruction on video, that way I can fast forward past the part teaching the importance of patience. StuRat 09:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Your quite right Bielle, that was too harsh. I was trying to get across the message that you can't learn from a site/book... whatever, that it takes years of hard work and even then you will never truly be awsome!sincerest apologies 70. i did not mean to bite and i should know better by now, please take dedalus's advice and personally i would recommend Tae Kwon Do as it has taught me much over the years grasshopper Perry-mankster 13:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Automobile engineering

What is the best school in this world for Automobile engineering?08:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)Ecclesiasticalparanoid

I may be biased, having attended the former General Motors Institute (now Kettering University), so I won't comment further. StuRat 09:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you would find independent ratings for such schools. Considering that Germany produces cars that are world-renowned for their engineering, it might help to speak German. BMW and Daimler's Mercedes division are concentrated in southern Germany. Probably the top university for engineering in that region is the Technical University of Munich, whose mechanical engineering department offers a concentration in automotive engineering. This would not be a bad place to start, if you can speak German. Marco polo 13:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Freezing Flowers

I have a wedding coming up in a week's time and would like to use some of my home-grown garden lilies which at the moment are open and spectacular - but I suspect will be past their best by next week. Is there a way I can pick some now and preserve them at their best for use on the day - maybe freezing perhaps? Thanks. 81.145.240.131 09:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty sure freezing them will destroy them when you defrost them. Freezing causes the water in the flowers to expand and ice cystals form inside the flower's cells which puncture the cells outerwalls as the ice expands, destroying the flower internally. Lanfear's Bane

I have seen documentaries about gardening exhibitions (eg. the Chelsea Flower Show) where competitors deep-chilled plants and flowers before the events to keep them at their best - but I suspect they have years of experience and high quality refrigeration to get the right temperatures. DuncanHill 10:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep them in the lower shelf of the fridge--88.109.207.20 10:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, you want to get them as cold as possible WITHOUT freezing them - one or two degrees C would be good.

It's not just in competitions, refridgeration (not freezing) is used during transport for the cut flower industry in floristry. Of course, they I presume have a specialised equipement and have done sufficient experimentation that know exactly what conditions to use for maximum longevity. If your fridge is like mine and items stored at the back tend to get frozen, I would take care in how you store them Nil Einne 13:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ask your local florist shop. They would be likely to know how to preserve flowers of different kinds, and could maybe sell you some of the secret powder that they put int the water to preserve cut flowers. I agree with the above postings that you don't actually want to Freeze the flowers, but the optimum temperature may be 1 or 2 degrees C or it may be 5 to 10 degrees C. ---Czmtzc 14:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

and keep the cut end of the stems in water; don't let them freeze, and don't let them dry out. Gzuckier 17:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

This weblink [2] has some suggestions which may be helpful. DuncanHill 17:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, avoid freezing them, but do refrigerate them and keep them in water. Dehydration will be a concern. I suggest you wrap them loosely in plastic wrap to limit this, and also cut the stems underwater to prevent introducing air bubbles into the stem, which would interfere with the capillary action used to pull water up to the flowers. Also use a preservative in the water, as mentioned above. This will give you the best chance, but still, a week is a long time to ask for fresh flowers to last, even under ideal conditions. For other flowers, like roses, I'd suggest removing the outer petals from each flower right before the wedding, to reveal the fresh petals underneath. However, with a lily, there aren't many "extra petals" to work with. StuRat 08:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Pork Bones in Montreal

Hello,

Im trying to follow a recipe from an english_published cookbook on how to make good ramen noodle stock. The recipe calls for pork bones in order to boil along with chicken bones to make the stock. However, i have asked at a dozen butchers in montreal and none of them seem to want to sell them to me. Is there some sort of health regulation as to the selling of pork bones? Or should I try chinatown? thanks --Cacofonie 15:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Buy some pork on bones (ribs, probably). Use the pork meat to make something luscious (barbecue?). Use the pork bones to make your stock. One package of meat -> two meals.

Atlant 17:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Buy them from Asian supermarkets, they should have some. --antilived^{T | C | G} 06:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Albin Countergambit

I am highly interested in this line of response to the Queen's gambit. The article on this countergambit doesn't seem to give too much information about how to respond to 5. Nbd2 (though it mentions it as one of the main lines). Any pointers for playing this line? John Riemann Soong 16:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm no good at chess, but you can browse a database of continuations here: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer?node=1727782 —Keenan Pepper 18:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm just an amateur myself, but let me give it a try. As black, I would be tempted to respond to Nd2 with Bb4, thus pinning the white knight with my bishop. The obvious response to this from white would be Qa4, which both checks me and threatens my bishop. My response would then be Nc6, thus blocking the check and simultaneously protecting the bishop. I would favor this line of action as it allows me to develop both a bishop and knight, and draws the opponent's queen out, hopefully prematurely. StuRat 08:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

High revving cars

Which production cars (or engines) operate at the highest RPMs? Recury 17:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The honda v-tech engine revs very higher, something around 8,500/9,000 RPM I think. A quick google search suggest the Honda S600 is the highest RPM production car. ny156uk 18:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

VTEC is the article. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can source this, it should be added to List of automotive superlatives - which doesn't have a category for highest revving. SteveBaker 21:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

For current cars I think the Mazda RX-8 has the highest RPM at 9500rpm, though that's the "effective" rpm since it's a Wankel engine. --antilived^{T | C | G} 06:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yamaha Jog RR LC

I need help!!!

Does anyone kwnow how to disassemble a Yamaha Jog RR LC clutch?? Is there a locking mechenism on the bolt to remove the clutch??

I need to know as I nedd to put in a new drive belt as the old one snapped!

Thanks for any help.

Joel

sleeping pills?

What do they do?

Avoiding the obvious answer...(they help you to sleep)...the article on Hypnotics lists a bunch of specific drugs that have this effect - I suggest you read the linked articles for each one because they don't all work in the same way. SteveBaker 21:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

1) They help you to fall asleep.

2) They help you to remain asleep for a suitable length of time. StuRat 08:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you avoided the obvious answer then... <sigh> SteveBaker 21:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's all that obvious that different mechanisms are needed to achieve sleep versus those needed to maintain sleep. We could further add that they help you get a deep sleep, with the appropriate brain wave patterns, if we wanted to go into even more detail. (But such a discussion might put people to sleep.) StuRat 06:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note also common side effects, as long as you are noting the desired effect. Edison 21:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

my wikipedia

why is my wikipedia slow? when I look at the reference desk, questions arent updated. When I use a different computer, I can read up-to-date questions, but not on my own computer.

Try purging the cache, which is basically a stored version of the page in your hard drive, so it won't have to reload it again. I believe it's CTRL+F5. Once you purge the cache it will reload the page with its updated changes. --71.98.4.68 00:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The "fag voice"

Why do a lot of gay men talk really highpitched like a woman but more fruity. And is that genetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.130.93 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 23 July 2007

Do you know any that do? I don't. You can't confuse the Hollywood stereotype caricature with real people; not everyone is worthy of Will and Grace. A lot of gay men have perfectly normal voices, clothing, and habits outside of the realm of dating. Kuronue 23:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I know some who do and some who dont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.130.93 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 23 July 2007

You might want to have a look at LGBT stereotypes and bear in mind on the subject of stereotypes that "some people consider all stereotypes to be negative. Stereotypes are rarely completely accurate, based on some kernel of truth, or completely fabricated." People may also be insulted by some of the terms you used in phrasing your question. As for it being genetic, this is unlikely, two homosexual men are unable to produce offspring and therefore unable to pass on genetic material. In some cases a female-like tone may even be affected. Lanfear's Bane

Actually Kuronue makes a good point when refering to Will and Grace, Will and Jack are both very different characters. Do however remember it is a television show and that "All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.". Lanfear's Bane

(after several ec's)

I'm going to answer this question seriously, based on the sincere intent in which it might have been intended, because it's one I've wondered about, too. It's true, many (though certainly not all) gay men do talk in some variety of the stereotyped way: a little higher pitched, a little singsong, a little lispy. And I used to wonder why they did that, as if they didn't realize how obvious it sounded.

But there was a fallacy in my question, namely the supposition that being (or sounding) gay was something to hide or be ashamed of. But of course it's not, or needn't be. And if you're gay, and comfortable, and "out", why not sound like you are? As someone eventually explained to me, sounding gay is a form of self-expression and self-identification. It's no different from sounding black, or sounding (pompously) educated, or sounding sexy, or sounding RP, or sounding like whatever group of people you identify with sounds like. —Steve Summit (talk) 00:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[P.S. No, it's not genetic. Very few aspects of our speech are genetic; most of them are learned.]

I dont watch will and grace and i dont know who jack is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.130.93 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 23 July 2007

I don't think this was a serious question, but there is some serious information in our Gay lisp article.  --Lambiam 00:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) While some do, some don't. My own experience is that a certain subpopulation of gay men do indeed have a unique tone of voice and style of delivery. There is some research to support this ("...Listeners correctly identified the sexual orientation of these speakers at a rate of 79.6%. Multiple regression analysis revealed that gay judgments were significantly associated with higher peak /s/ frequency values and longer /s/ duration values. Acoustic cues associated with perceived sexual orientation generally agreed with acoustic findings as a function of actual sexual orientation. While these results must be interpreted cautiously, findings suggest that members of the community of openly gay men demonstrate certain speech characteristics that are discernible to listeners." [3], see also [4]).

As far as I know there is no research to support a genetic or physiological basis for this phenomenon (though it cannot be ruled out). I suspect that the gay lisp and other speech traits are adopted – probably subconsciously – by gay men in order to openly indicate their sexual orientation (to advertise their availability, to identify with a community, and/or to forestall heterosexual advances). Style of speech is one of the key indicators for gaydar. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This has been addressed previously, see Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2007 January 3#Homosexual High Pitched Voice. Rockpocket 06:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like to address a mistaken assumption that homosexual characteristics can't possible be inherited. This is not necessarily true. In the case of gay men, many of them have biological children. This can happen in many ways:

1) They may be "in the closet", and may marry and/or have children as part of the pretense.

2) They may have a heterosexual period (during which they father children) and a homosexual period in their life.

3) They may be bisexual.

4) They may father children by in vitro fertilization using a surrogate mother.

5) They may contribute to a sperm bank.

That said, I have no evidence that the gay lisp is inherited, but this possibility should not be rejected out of hand. Differences in hormone levels, such as testosterone and estrogen, could be both inherited and effect the voice, for example. StuRat 08:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you are right, I should have said "two homosexual men are unable to produce natural offspring together". Do we have any evidence to back up any genetic transference of such a gene? Does a gene for a 'homosexual voice' provide any genetic advantage? Would there be enough incidences of the above to propagate a 'homosexual voice' would this also be accompanied by a 'homosexual gene'? I admit it is not impossible, however it seems improbable. Lanfear's Bane

Another point to be born in mind when considering a genetic component for sexual orientation is that there is unlikely to be a single gene which defines a person's sexuality. Rather, a combination of several genes whose effects interact in a particular way. DuncanHill 09:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

But the original question was not about whether sexual orientation is inherited. It was whether there is a genetic component to the gay lisp accent. The overwhelming evidence is that all accents are almost entirely learnt (consciously or sub-consciously) and have little or no genetic component. As out article on accents says: Children are able to take on accents at a fast rate; children of traveling families, for example, can change their accents within a short period of time. This generally remains true until a person's early twenties, after which, a person's accent seems to become more entrenched.. Gandalf61 11:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Even granted the assumption (in this case, a faulty one) that trait "n" causes its bearer not to reproduce, it doesn't follow that "n" cannot be genetic: plenty of diseases which are fatal in early childhood are inherited genetically. Not everything we inherit is taken in identical form from our parents: there are such things as recessive genes, for example. Marnanel 11:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the recessive model for "homosexual tendency" genes. In particular, I would compare homosexuality with sickle cell anemia (my apologies for the disease analogy). While two sickle cell genes are deadly, thus causing the individual to die without passing on their genes, a single sickle cell gene is actually helpful, allowing some protection from malaria, in this case. Similarly, partial homosexuality (bisexuality) may be helpful. For example, in small tribes of humans, the number of breeding age males and females is often mismatched. Bisexuals may "make due" when there is a shortage of the opposite sex, and thus survive until the ratio changes, while strictly heterosexual individuals fought each other, often resulting in death, over the meager resource in question. If "gay lisp" or other behaviors helped to identify individuals who "were not a threat", this may have made those individuals more likely to survive until the shortage abated. StuRat 20:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

In my limited experience, I think they can put on a normal voice or a camp voice as it suits them. Fore example Mr.Humphreys in Are you being served?--GlazedBeaver 14:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. In my experience, with certain of my friends (mostly my gay friends), we talk in stereotypical "gay voices" but we know it. We do it consciously, as a joke. Anyone listening would think that we were conforming to stereotypes, and we are, in a sense, but because we don't care - we think it's funny. We're parodying ourselves - it's kind of like what Steve Summit said. Since we're all gay (and out), why not pretend to be really over the top and poke fun at all the stereotypes. We also do the "gay walk", etc. I don't know anyone who does it "unconsciously", so to speak. So if that helps... СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I have read in accounts of high school/middle school bullying that it is common for bullies to ridicule boys who are(unconsciously) exhibiting gay mannerisms, who may not be in fact gay. At an early enough age, they may not have really adopted a sexual identity or had sexual experiences. Edison 21:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the bully may not have adopted a sexual identity or had sexual experiences, leading them to bully others who they perceive to exhibit gay mannerisms, in an attempt to deflect attention from themselves... Seriously, 'gay mannerisms' in school-age children are surely more likely to be perceived in children who people want to bully, and to have little if anything to do with anybody's actual sexual experiences, identity or preference. Why on Earth would someone who had not 'adopted a sexual identity' 'at an early enough age' act in a societally determined stereotypical gay manner, subconsciously? 86.140.170.177 23:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No one else seems to have mentioned it, and a quick scan indicates it is not linked from any of the articles mentioned here, so put Confirmation bias on your "See also" list. dr.ef.tymac 04:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)