Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 May 22

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May 22

beans from Mexico

This is an odd question,but please hear me out. Are the imported canned pinto beans from Mexico, refried or otherwise, actually bayo beans?

A similar question was asked last month, you can read the answer offered then. Rockpocket 06:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

KeeganB was the one who asked the question last month. Maybe this little ditty will help her/him remember:

Pintos and bayos the magical fruit

In separate sections they're written about

The more you remember the better we'll feel

So check for responses this time, you schlemiel.

--Anchoress 07:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, Anchoress. It works better if you read it with a Scottish or Canadian accent, thereby rhyming fruit with aboot ;) Rockpocket 07:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

TYVM, and yeah, that was what I had in mind. But to be fair, Canadians only say 'aboot' on South Park. Anchoress 07:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

True dat. While we're discussing Canadianisms, check out the Eh? article. A lot of things are put into Canadian mouths by other people. Crisco 1492 01:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What RPM to shift?

Generally, when trying to achieve the fastest possible acceleration with a manual transmission stock production car, when (in the RPM range) should you shift gears? For example, should you shift just as you are about to hit the redline? Thanks. 74.14.72.36 02:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK, there isn't a "general" answer to that question. It would depend on the power output-RPM curve of the car in question; to get maximum acceleration, you want to keep the car in its peak power band, which is likely to be somewhat less than the redline. As RPM increases, power output increases up to the peak power point, then decreases again beyond that point. You should be able to find the peak-power RPM for your engine in the car's manual or specifications; some cars have relatively flat power bands, with a broad region of almost-constant high power output. Others have very 'peaky' power delivery, which means you have to make rapid gearshifts before the engine falls out of its power band on one side or the other. Thinking about this futher, I may mean the peak torque rather than peak power... it's late here, and my brain is full of sail aerodynamics. --YFB ¿ 02:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as above, it depends, but often, shifting near redline is the way to go, except with cars whose torque curve drops off significantly before then. Lower gears give you more mechanical advantage, so there's something to be said for staying in the lower gear longer. Friday (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note, generally even going over 80% to the redline would be considered 'thrashing it' and doing it regularly will considerably lower the life of your engine. In typical conditions, even if you like taking off fast at the lights you can keep within 60% - 70% and still get very good performance. Vespine 06:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't buy that at all. Engine makers define the redline within safe limits for the engine. I'd be far more concerned with wasted gas than with engine wear. Friday (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It certainly depends on the type of car (or more accurately, the type of engine and gearbox) - you actually want to shift at the precise point where the torque you are getting in this gear is about to decrease below the torque you would get in your new gear. If you imagine a graph of torque versus RPM, for most engines it's not a simple increasing curve with a maximum at redline - Here is a typical torque curve for a MINI Cooper. The lighter blue line is torque - the darker blue is horsepower. Notice that the most torque happens at 4000 RPM - redline for the MINI is close to 7000 RPM - so for sure, you don't want to be shifting as late as 6000 RPM - you'd already be losing torque as your revs increase. But this doesn't tell you all you need to know...you need to know the gear ratios for the gear you are in and the gear you want to be in (the next gear up - probably). Suppose we are shifting from 2nd to 3rd - you want to find the point where (at your present speed) the rpm in 2nd gear is somewhere above the peak of the torque curve - and the rpm in 3rd gear is below the peak of the torque curve - and you want to do the shift at the point where the torque in the 2nd and 3rd would be identical. At that exact moment, going faster in 2nd gear will result in gradually reducing torque - where shifting into 3rd would give you gradually increasing torque. This requires some math - and that you know the torque curve and gear ratios for your car. In actual practical driving, it takes you some time to actually do the shift - during which time the car won't be accellerating (in fact it'll be slowing down a bit) - so it may be worth staying in a slightly less efficient gear just in order to avoid doing a wasteful shift. This is why people recommend you shift later than is theoretically perfect - hence the advice to shift close to redline. However, that's a function of how fast you shift - if you have a good gearbox and a nice short shifter with a vicious clutch then you can shift sooner. If you shift slowly or your clutch is worn or just generally 'soft' - then shifting later makes sense. I wrote a computer program to figure out the optimum shift points for my car and my driving abilities! SteveBaker 13:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

So if you can shift instantly, idealy you want to shift right at the peak of your torque curve? 67.71.94.162 01:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, if it peaks but only drops off a little, no sense shifting yet. You want to stay in the lower gear until the torque drops off enough that it's worth shifting. Where this point is, depends on the car, as explained above. Friday (talk) 01:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - if you shift at the peak of the torque curve - you'll be a long way down the curve in your new gear and you'll have less accelleration - the perfect shift point is always somewhere AFTER the peak of the torque curve. So you need to keep accellerating (even though the amount of torque you are getting is starting to decrease) until you are at the point when your new gear will produce the same amount of torque as the gear you are in. Suppose (hypothetically) your car has a 2:1 gear ratio in second gear and a 5:1 ratio in third gear. If you shift from 2nd to 3rd at 'x' RPM then your RPM after you shift will be (2x/5) - so we need to find an RPM such that the torque at x RPM is the same as the torque at (2x/5) RPM - but on the opposite side of the torque peak. In reality, the car slows down a little bit as you shift - so in truth, the RPM after you shift will be a little less than (2x/5) so you'd actually want to wait a fraction of a second after the ideal shift point. To add to the complications - since we have different gear ratios differences between every pair of gears, the perfect place to shift will probably be different between (say) 1st and 2nd than it is between 2nd and 3rd.

But in the end, this advice is too complicated to follow. You literally need a dynamometer chart for your specific car (no two are the same - even if they are the identical model dyno'ed under identical conditions), the gear ratios for your gearbox (probably that's in the manufacturers spec sheets), the time it takes you to shift (how the heck do you measure that?) and the drag profile of the car at a range of speeds (also hard to figure out). Figuring out the perfect theoretical shift points from that data really requires a computer program.

Even if you know the perfect shift points for every pair of gears - your ability to 'nail' the shift at the perfect RPM is generally significantly impaired by the lag of the tachometer and the fact that you need to watch the road while you are rocketing away from a standing stop so you can't be staring fixedly at the tach. You also need to be adjusting the gas with your right foot perfectly during the shift or the RPM's you end up at after the shift won't be right and the car will jerk or the tires will 'chirp' indicating an RPM mismatch. Even worse, the dyno data is different depending on the weather! Air pressure and temperature change the amount of power your engine can produce - as does the gasoline you use. The net result of all this is that it's unlikely that you'll be able to figure out the shift points perfectly - and even if you could, it's unlikely you'll be able to drive the thing that accurately.

So we end up falling back on 'gut feel' and lots of practice. If you really care, buy yourself an automotive accelerometer (I bought a G-tech accelerometer on eBay for $40). It can measure your 0-60 time quite accurately (certainly within a tenth of a second) without you having to fiddle around with stopwatches and stuff - it starts timing automatically when the car starts rolling and beeps at you when you hit 60mph, freezing your 0-60 time on it's LED display. It is the perfect tool to practice with because you can concentrate on driving while it does the timing completely automatically. Try shifting at different RPM's and see what this does to your overall time...but PLEASE, do this stuff safely - someplace where it's legal and there is no traffic. Eventually, shifting optimally becomes second nature - but I've found that I need to keep up practice with the accelerometer because after a few months my 'gut feel' becomes less perfect. SteveBaker 11:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

TEEL Model of essay writing

What is the TEEL Model of essay writing? --Candy-Panda 08:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Try Google. See here or here. Lupo 10:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

fat burners

I've recently started running to lose a bit of weight but I've found that after nearly a month the weight loss has stopped. Somebody told me that fat burners might help, I was wondering if anybody had any experience of using these & if they found they were worth trying?

p.s. Which brands do you suggest?

There's a nice article on Weight loss that you should look at. Basically, when you change your eating habits or drink the "liquid sawdust in a can", the body may lose some water, etc, making it appear to be effective. Soon, however, the body realizes it's being fooled, and starts compensating. That's why almost all fad diets are ineffective in the long term, and people are worse off. --Zeizmic 14:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations on starting and sticking with an exercise plan. The basic, unavoidable equation for weight loss is intake (of food) minus output (of energy) equals gain or loss of weight. If you have increased your energy output through exercise and not increased your intake of food, you will slowly, over time, lose weight. But...there are many factors that will affect this. As you exercise you will increase your muscle mass, losing fat but gaining muscle may mean your actual weight loss is small. It is common for people to reach plateaus during weight loss. Keep exercising and eating healthy food and the weight loss should pick up again. Using fat burners, fad diets, etc. may cause some short term weight loss but exercise will give better results over time and be sustainable. Also you will have the advantage of a higher level of fitness and have developed a great habit that will improve your overall health and well-being. Also, running is way cheaper than any diet supplement!--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 23:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

solar system

I'm sorry. I asked this earlier. but I couldn't find the reply. pl. help me to find the distence of planets from the sun, planets' diameter, period of revelution, period of rotation, moons and any other details. thank you again.124.43.243.69 13:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Can I suggest you start at solar system, and then visit each planet's article to retrieve this data. Alternatively, Table of planets and dwarf planets in the Solar System. --Tagishsimon (talk)

The question and its answers were put back in the archives: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007_May_16#solar_system ---Sluzzelin talk 14:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Looking for someone

I am writing a book and want to kmnow if there is a special place where records of births, marriages and deaths can be researched?

Do you have a particular country in mind? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be in England. Assuming this, the Family Records Centre and various online things (here looks a good place to start), including the pre-1901 censuses, should help you out. Algebraist 15:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

churches might be able to help too.

Can't find a page

There used to be a page on Wikipedia listing lots of film clichés, such as:

Man: I'm going in. Woman: So am I. Man: No, it's too dangerous.

It was really funny. I now can't find it. If it's been moved, could someone please tell me and provide a link?

Looks like your page was speedily deleted; see [1]. Chalk another one up for the deletionists. I'm not sure what the policy is regarding making deleted material available; maybe, if you ask an admin nicely, they'll give you a copy of it, as long as you don't repost it on Wikipedia. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Damn deletionists! 86.11.96.74 14:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's the discussion about the deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Film and television clichés. And since it wasn't deleted for libel or other legal "cause", yes, any administrator should be willing to convey the page contents to you.

Atlant 16:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, check out Hollywood operating system and Cartoon physics - but quietly - those deletionists have really sharp hearing. SteveBaker 18:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Mugen

Where can I get Mugen chars. from (if anybody know what that is)that is very powerful like...ssj4 Goku....ssj4 Vegeta and stuff like that please assist216.206.210.163 14:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC) me on this

Sorry, those characters are owned by the company that made them. It would be a violation of copyright law to assist you in illegally copying them -- Phoeba Wright^OBJECTION! 15:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Do u know the company website?Please Help me cause i found a CD on the street that says mugen

Please sign your posts with ~~~~. And no, the company does not support Mugen, any characters from them on Mugen are copyright infringement. If you wish to play as those characters, please buy the Dragon Ball Z series of games -- Phoeba Wright^OBJECTION! 07:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Google gave me this [2] when I typed "Mugen" in the Search box. Bielle 23:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

NO i asked 4 a site 2 download it from u cornhole

recording

i had a question which was being asked and guys were to do research and get the answer.it went but i have come to know the answer.i got part of the clip of the celebrity voice.she is sayng'id like to do even more i love it'

am sorry am trying to insert the clip but am just messing things up/

okay what do u do to insert a clip?sorry for the mess guyz

If you're looking for a question you asked in the past, you should be able to find it in the archives. This will be easiest if you remember which month you asked the question, and on which desk. I'm guessing either humanities or miscellaneous. You could also try searching google with the term site:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives, plus some words you think will be in your question. Skittle 20:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I think what he (or she) is saying is that he's found the answer to his question now, i.e. has identified the mystery voice, and just wants to upload the sound file to share it with us. For help on this, see here. The most important thing to remember is that the only audio file format allowed on Wikipedia is Ogg Vorbis. MP3 is a definite no-no. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes. That does parse better: thanks :-) Skittle 20:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

NO i asked 4 a site that i can download it from cornhole

am saying i have the celebritys voice in my flash disk and i want u guyz to listen to it and see if u can recognize the voice.what are the steps of posting the recording on this page?

Timer for Immersion Tank

Hello, Please Help!

I have a timer connected to my immersion tank which has a 24 hour clock with little metal pins to stick in to turn it on and off.

There are 2 rows of holes on the dial spaced 15 mins apart and I stick one of the little metal pins on the inner ring to turn it on and another on the outer ring a few holes away (maybe 1 hour) to turn it off.

My problem is that i have lost one of the little metal pins so can only leave it set for one on & one off for any given day. I would like to turn it on for 1/2 hour before I get up so I can wash in non-icy water but then again later in the day so the hot water will last until I go to bed. With 3 pins only this I cannot do.

I can just manage to barely get to the timer but cannot see any make or model number. (I am somewhat hampered in this by the fact I'm disabled).

I don't know the correct name for this type of timer and despite googling for 2 hours cannot seem to find one. I only really want 1 or more of the little metal pins. I have tried with some plastic pins I had on another timer that went into a plug socket but they didn't seem to work. Scraggy4 17:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I deeply sympathize, but unless you can fashion a makeshift pin yourself I doubt whether you'll be able to get a replacement at a reasonable cost, if at all, as most timers now are electronic. They're very cheap and reliable and will also offer you more flexibility in programming.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The pins don't do anything clever or electronic - they just flip a little lever as they go past. So literally anything strong enough to trip the switch that fits into that little hole will do. A pin, a toothpick, maybe a matchstick, an unbent paperclip...anything like that will do it. SteveBaker 18:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Steve, a match sounds about the write thickness. I will try and clamber up the 2 flights of stairs again tomorrow, if i can find a match, shame a cigarette lighter wouldn't fit. I didn't want to buy a new one as that would mean hiring an electrician to fit it and it would probably be cheaper to hire people to boil the kettle 1000 times than hire one of those.

I will let you know how it works. Scraggy4 18:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Another suggestion, take the pin you have to a hardware store and buy nails of the same diameter (or slightly smaller). These should hopefully work and yet be more durable than a match. StuRat 05:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Or you could adopt the Heath Robinson solution and move the pins every morning and evening. Gandalf61 21:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no! The Heath Robinson approach would be to have the on-off switch tied with string to the end of an umbrella with a fan tied to the tail of a dog which when wagged vigorously blows the umbrella to one side - thereby turning on the hot water tank. There would be a chute made from an old drainpipe down which a dog biscuit would slide to make the dog wag it's tail and the dog biscuits would fall when pushed by a lever with an old glove tied to the end. The lever would go through a hole in the wall and into a restaurant dining room - a broomhandle is attached to the back of one of the chairs using a garden gnome, six forks and lots more string. The broom would press the lever when someone came there to dine at lunchtime or dinner - thereby turning on the immersion heater at just the right times. Of course no means whatever for turning off the immersion heater would be provided. For our American readers, one may substitute Rube Goldberg for Heath Robinson without loss of cultural context. SteveBaker 23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It pleases me greatly to report success. Armed with a match, nail and paperclip I approached the stairs from the South Face and despite some difficulty with altitude sickness arrived at the cupboard holding the timer. (some hours later) The match was too big by far, the nail by less, but the large paperclip ideal. I inserted into round hole and watched in amazement as..... the dial stopped turning. I had pushed it in too hard. Withdrawing it slightly returned the dial to its never ending giddiness and indeed activated the switch. Hurrah! I exclaimed and sat recovering from the ordeal and as I did the damn paperclip proceeded to fall out. By greatluck some Blu-Tak was found close at hand and with that in place my life is now complete.

Many Many Thanks for your suggestions. Unfortunately I have no neighbour named Heath Robinson and my attempts to avail myself of one with grass-clippings and jam fell sadly short. Scraggy4 16:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Blu-tak and a bent paperclip? Wow! That's pretty much the perfect combination of precision engineering components! Now, if you'd managed to work in a strip of duct tape and a bungee chord, you'd have automatic entry into engineering Valhalla! (We Brits are of course entitled to omit the bungee chord and substitute - in classic Blue Peter fashion - either a Fairy Liquid bottle cap or an empty yoghurt pot.) SteveBaker 20:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

confusion about savings bonds

I'm confused about US savings bonds. Maybe someone can clarify for me or point me in the right direction. One type will give you 2.9% a year guaranteed (?) and another usually gives 8% a year not guaranteed but people have been getting the 8% every time since our government introduced the bonds (?). Also I know how to get graphs of funds and stocks but what if i wanted to compare these with the us savings bond: Is there a ticker symbol for a US savings bond. If not why not? Thanks Iownatv 21:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't believe there is any ticker symbol. The interest rates are recalculated frequently in a somewhat complex manner so it is hard to predict which are better. I don't believe that your sample rates are correct however. Current rates are 3.4% on EE bonds and 3.74 on I bonds[3]. Rmhermen 00:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)